Elimination Chamber 2023 - The End of the (Blood)Line

[air_raid]

3 minutes ago, Kfogg1991 said:

The biggest problem for me with the wwe in recent years is the fact they seem to rush everything and not have these long term storylines that has room to grow and breathe, your not reinventing the wheel you don't have to have your main champion go through 80 feuds a year there's nothing wrong with slow builds. But it's when it turns out the way this has which creates issues because it becomes what we planned months ago to what we have now created and seems almost bigger and the place the universe is wanting to go. 

You don’t know what you want. You want long term planning, consistency and execution except when you don’t.

[Joe Blog]

Sami winning the belt was never the end game, we have been so conditioned into thinking that winning a title is the end game to a feud that people get carried away. Sami was about redemption, it was about him realising what a horrid shit Roman is.
 

The whole Sami arc was about him being accepted, Jey did that for Sami. People still cheered for Sami because he was the dork trying to hang around with the cool guys. He essentially taught Jey how to trust again and the pay off to that was Jey having to watch him turn on Roman, except it isn’t as clear cut as that because Jey through Sami has finally realised what a horrid human Roman is. The big story now is Sami and Jey, can Jey overcome years of gaslighting to do the same thing that Sami did? 
 

Cody is beating Roman for the belts. Roman won’t accept responsibility though he will blame the Bloodline, he will blame Jey who hopefully will be losing the tag belts to Sami and KO. Roman will say it was Jey’s fault because he lost his belt earlier in the night etc. 

Or you know, triple threat with Cody being booed. 

[DavidB6937]

All this about end games and conditioned thoughts and right and wrong.. it's all bullshit. We're a bunch of fans watching a wrestling show. We're all enjoying it in our own ways. We all have our different opinions on how things should go.

And you know what? That's absolutely fucking fine. We've got a storyline that so many people are actually invested in and give a shit about in WWE. That's what it comes down to and that's a good thing.

Stuff like who will win and what's better for business etc.. sure if that's what drives you then go for it but mostly I'd suggest we treat this just like any storyline in another TV show or film or whatever. Just fucking enjoy it.

[air_raid]

41 minutes ago, Joe Blog said:

Sami winning the belt was never the end game, we have been so conditioned into thinking that winning a title is the end game to a feud that people get carried away.

In the world of pro wrestling, doesn’t that make sense though when one person in that feud holds a title? The best way the protagonist can hurt the antagonist is by taking the belt they covet, especially when it’s the big one.

34 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

Stuff like who will win and what's better for business etc.. sure if that's what drives you then go for it but mostly I'd suggest we treat this just like any storyline in another TV show or film or whatever. Just fucking enjoy it.

Blame Montreal for that. Survivor Series 97, not Saturday. The Screwjob and resultant exposes such as Wrestling With Shadows and Meltzers lengthy diarised write up of the months preceding it got more of us talking about “the booking” than ever before. Even those of us 100% smart to it being a work could still get relatively sucked in, for instance myself, who in the run up to SummerSlam 97 was completely wrapped up in thoughts like “How on Earth can Bret beat the Undertaker? He’s hardly ever lost and should have beaten Bret last time. And what the hell is Shawn going to do?” But in the context of “How does Jon’s army stand a chance against the Boltons? Will the Vale come to help?” As opposed to “What are the writers going to do here?” Montreal changed a lot of that and soon every result that didn’t seem to make sense in the wider narrative came under more intense scrutiny. After the wonky finish to Starrcade and the mess the night after on Nitro, instead of “I can’t believe Hogan might weasel out with the belt again” it was “Why the fuck have they cut Stings legs off? They’ve really fucked this up.” They became a part of deciding if we enjoyed the show or not.

Of course, WWE haven’t exactly helped their own cause in continuing to pull back the curtain further and further. CM Punk voicing his own grievances on how he was booked for Mania 27 and said circumstances and his future booking playing a part in his contract negotiations all being discussed on an official WWE DVD being probably the most egregious example off the top of my head.

[Pinc]

1 hour ago, DavidB6937 said:

All this about end games and conditioned thoughts and right and wrong.. it's all bullshit. We're a bunch of fans watching a wrestling show. We're all enjoying it in our own ways. We all have our different opinions on how things should go.

And you know what? That's absolutely fucking fine. We've got a storyline that so many people are actually invested in and give a shit about in WWE. That's what it comes down to and that's a good thing.

Stuff like who will win and what's better for business etc.. sure if that's what drives you then go for it but mostly I'd suggest we treat this just like any storyline in another TV show or film or whatever. Just fucking enjoy it.

Aye there’s an awful lot of pearl clutching about ‘tribalism’ and ‘toxicity’ among online wrestling fandom these days. Much of which just comes down to telling others not to get excited about things. As in this case, where wanting loveable babyfaces to win in their hometowns is apparently entitled.

Its great that there’s strong feeling on both sides and if Cody is your favourite then that’s great too. But if you just want Cody to win because its the sensible option? I don’t know, little weird.

[d-d-d-dAz]

3 minutes ago, Pinc said:

Aye there’s an awful lot of pearl clutching about ‘tribalism’ and ‘toxicity’ among online wrestling fandom these days. Much of which just comes down to telling others not to get excited about things. As in this case, where wanting loveable babyfaces to win in their hometowns is apparently entitled.

Its great that there’s strong feeling on both sides and if Cody is your favourite then that’s great too. But if you just want Cody to win because its the sensible option? I don’t know, little weird.

You called everyone who enjoyed the PPV a ‘bootlicker’ - as a reminder - whilst we chat about tribalism and toxicity. Think there was also a mention about ‘psychopathy’??

On that, I believe every reference to ‘toxicity’ has been around the idea of fans actively wanting people to turn on someone based on who they’re not.

Let’s keep things accurate. I’ve also not seen anyone, I don’t think, say Cody should win because he’s the sensible option.

As far as I can see, everyone who’s sided with WWE has said: Elimination Chamber was great, Sami’s brilliant, well told story, look forward to what’s next and if that’s Cody, great. I don’t think anyone is flying the flag for Cody as hard as people are for Sami.

[Pinc]

1 minute ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

You called everyone who enjoyed the PPV a ‘bootlicker’ - as a reminder - whilst we chat about tribalism and toxicity.

Well yeah, and pearls were clutched.

I’m not arguing against ‘toxicity’ I’m arguing against its use as a buzzword to stifle other fans’ excitement. And I did’t say people who enjoyed the show (of whom I am one) were licking boot. I was referring to the miserablist defenders of a very safe, deflating booking decision.

[The Gaffer]

I totally understand what people are getting at when they're taking a vote for the dashing one as a wrestlenomics, best for business type outlook but it's still possible to actually enjoy that.

What I loved about the New Gen era despite all its outdated trappings was that there was always still a clear path of progression with the next big stars. Bret, Diesel and Michaels all got coronations. It was an objective "This is the guy, here's where we're going" and there's something about watching that tradition unfold that's immensely nostalgic and satisfying for me. 

It also almost never happens anymore. Brand split, brand merge and brand split again. Belt split, belt merge, belt split again. Cena and Batista got it at WrestleMania 21. Roman got it through a succession of false starts before he finally found his footing. Brock got it - yeah - but he's a fucking space time anomaly both genetically and to the ebb and flow of WWE booking. 

In between that there's been literal decades of shite Orton reigns, Jinder, Drew with no crowds, Kofi for the gratitude, Big E but did they ever really mean it, Seamus reigns you can't remember, the Ambrose one that put even him to sleep, Del Rio, Miz. You get the picture. 

With Rhodes there's a proper chance they can break that cycle, and it's been built terrifically by virtue of the fact that the biggest star in the business has held it for ages and ages now. I view this as all parallel to the Sami thing. I'm not saying that shouldn't have happened - I'd have loved it if it did - but objectively the odds massively dictated he wouldn't have had much of a run with it anyway. What's certain is that the moment's at least temporarily passed. 

So yeah I actually do want The Plan now. Very much so. Plans can be...really good. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

5 minutes ago, Pinc said:

Well yeah, and pearls were clutched.

I’m not arguing against ‘toxicity’ I’m arguing against its use as a buzzword to stifle other fans’ excitement. And I did’t say people who enjoyed the show (of whom I am one) were licking boot. I was referring to the miserablist defenders of a very safe, deflating booking decision.

But no one has used it to stifle other fans excitement. It's been used to describe the potential act of hijacking other segments in an act of tantrum (which is actually, if you think about it, stifling other peoples excitement).

Also, those 'miserablist defenders of a very safe, deflating booking decision', out of interest, why aren't they allowed their own sense of excitement? Isn't that doing what you're talking about and not letting others enjoy things? Why are they 'bootlickers' or psychopaths?

This is the point all along, people are upset their favourite didn't win and are lashing out, instead of just kicking back and looking forward to what comes next, or turning off if it's that egregious.

Obviously, I say that as a bootlicking, miserablist defender of a very safe, deflating booking decision, so take it with a pinch of salt.

Edited February 21, 2023 by d-d-d-dAz

[Nick James]

This thread has taken a turn and I'm not entirely sure I even understand the argument anymore. 

[Pinc]

8 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

This is the point all along, people are upset their favourite didn't win and are lashing out, instead of just kicking back and looking forward to what comes next, or turning off if it's that egregious.

Well yeah this is where we differ, I think. Wanting your favourites to win is a central part of watching wrestling. Or any sport/entertainment form with winners and losers. And there’s been a weird turn in the last few years where apparently there’s something wrong with that, and individual fans have a duty to ‘kick back and look forward’ regardless of how they feel.

No problem with people who want Cody to win because he’s their favourite at all. Just don’t like the policing of other fans’ reactions where they disagree with the bookers.

[d-d-d-dAz]

11 minutes ago, Pinc said:

Well yeah this is where we differ, I think. Wanting your favourites to win is a central part of watching wrestling. Or any sport/entertainment form with winners and losers. And there’s been a weird turn in the last few years where apparently there’s something wrong with that, and individual fans have a duty to ‘kick back and look forward’ regardless of how they feel.

No problem with people who want Cody to win because he’s their favourite at all. Just don’t like the policing of other fans’ reactions where they disagree with the bookers.

Again, worth going through the thread - everyone saying is disappointment is absolutely the correct response. Getting angry and wishing for fan mutiny is where that really becomes a problem. No one should have a hobby or a form of entertainment they love where they stick around just to call people cunts for not doing what they want. Just check out. And, again, booing Cody Rhodes because he's not Sami Zayn is insane.

Disapointed, angry, frustrated is absolutely the response you should have as a wrestling fan. Tell us about it on here. But the idea that it's within a wrestling fans gift to hijack shows to get what they want, and boo other peoples segments because they didn't happen to be born someone else, is thankfully looking like it's a thing of the past. 

I'm pretty glad that fans seem to have changed over the years. That period of fans trying to control the shows from their seats was *awful*. I hope wrestling does become like normal telly, where you watch it as long as you're enjoying it enough to come back the next week, and if you stop enjoying it you turn off. I'd say legacy fans who cling on for grim death, hatewatching shows through gritted teeth and groaning about how it was better in the old days or how the bookers are idiots need to find something else. It's just wrestling. It's fine.

Edited February 21, 2023 by d-d-d-dAz

[BomberPat]

12 hours ago, DavidB6937 said:

That and he turned up after the fact. They'd been chanting for him earlier in the match. I get they were trying to show that there was still a sense of uncertainty between the two and logically it made sense. It just had the wrong kinda feeling for the place and the time I think. I wish they'd been able to just have KO do the proper rescue and something a little bit more straight forward and rewarding emotionally. Especially there.

I hate they seem to be doing "will they/won't they" tension with Sami and Kevin. After a finish like that, the audience need some kind of emotional catharsis to send them home happy - and make them not feel like the effort and emotional energy they put into supporting Sami was for nothing. They should have had Sami and Kevin hug and stand tall to end the show, even in defeat. 

10 hours ago, CleetusVanDamme said:

I'm hoping this is just another UKFF phantom backlash like Edge's a couple of years ago. People were swearing blind the returning crowd was going to eviscerate him for not being Daniel Bryan!

hang on, didn't they have to turn Edge heel and crowbar Daniel Bryan into the main event? Isn't that what happened?

[Pinc]

*double post

Edited February 21, 2023 by Pinc

[Pinc]

13 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

Disapointed, angry, frustrated is absolutely the response you should have as a wrestling fan. Tell us about it on here. But the idea that it's within a wrestling fans gift to hijack shows to get what they want, and boo other peoples segments because they didn't happen to be born someone else, is thankfully looking like it's a thing of the past. 

I'm pretty glad that fans seem to have changed over the years. That period of fans trying to control the shows from their seats was *awful*. I hope wrestling does become like normal telly, where you watch it as long as you're enjoying it enough to come back the next week, and if you stop enjoying it you turn off. I'd say legacy fans who cling on for grim death, hatewatching shows through gritted teeth and groaning about how it was better in the old days or how the bookers are idiots need to find something else. It's just wrestling. It's fine.

Well again I think we differ on how we enjoy wrestling (which is fine obviously). I tend to think the de facto co-authorship of the shows between the writers and fans is one of the most interesting things about it. And fairly unique. If that occasionally rises to the level of ‘hijacking’ the shows, I don’t know. It’s still just cheering and/or booing characters on a wrestling show, like.

Anyway I’ll step out now as I think we’ve thoroughly exhausted the issue. Here’s hoping the Cody story catches fire and everyone’s happy.

Edited February 21, 2023 by Pinc