AEW - what needs to change?

[Your Fight Site]

Given AEW is going for the pseudo-sport aesthetic with win–loss records, they could run “seasons” instead of just signing everyone they can throughout the years. Means they would have a roster that seems fresh (and utilised) rather than signing people, then not debuting for weeks and immediately getting lost in the shuffle when they do eventually debut. 

[BomberPat]

I still think they're managing the "ex-WWE" thing pretty well, even if there's a few people knocking about that I could live without. Double Or Nothing is a very busy card, but if you break it down into splits of who feels like a "WWE" guy versus who's an "AEW" guy, it comes out pretty well;

• Hangman Page (AEW) vs. CM Punk ("WWE" - though I think his presentation in AEW has done a brilliant job of making it clear he's anything but a WWE guy, and it would be daft to really think of him as one)
• Young Bucks (AEW) vs. Hardy Boyz (WWE)
• Thunder Rosa (AEW) vs. Serena Deeb (AEW - I don't think anyone instinctively associates her with a WWE run a decade ago)
• Hook & Danhausen (AEW) vs. Mark Sterling (AEW) & Tony Nese (WWE - though, again, such an afterthought in WWE that it's negligible)
• Keith Lee & Swerve Strickland (WWE) vs. Jungle Boy & Luchasaurus (AEW) vs. Ricky Starks & Powerhouse Hobbs (AEW)
• Fenix (AEW), Penta (AEW) & PAC (arguably WWE, though he's been with AEW since the beginning, and I think with AEW longer than he was on the main roster for WWE) vs. House Of Black (two ex-WWE, one AEW)
• Eddie Kingston (AEW), Jon Moxley (AEW - as has been said before, no one actually watching AEW looks at him and thinks "Dean Ambrose" any more), Bryan Danielson (ex-WWE, but doing a damn good job of establishing himself as an AEW guy), Santana and Ortiz (AEW) vs. Chris Jericho (WWE - but has been with AEW since the beginning), Jake Hager (WWE, but with AEW since the beginning), Daniel Garcia (AEW) & 2.0 (ex-NXT, but far more prominent in AEW).
• Adam Cole (WWE) vs. Kyle O'Reilly (WWE) OR Samoa Joe (WWE)
• Jade Cargill (AEW) vs. Anna Jay (AEW)
• Toni Storm (WWE) OR Britt Baker (AEW) vs. Ruby Soho (WWE) or Kris Statlander (AEW)
• (Probably) MJF (AEW) vs. Wardlow (AEW)

So for all the talk of too many WWE people coming in, there's only one match on the card that's a guaranteed ex-WWE derby, and that requires you seeing Samoa Joe as a "WWE guy", when even when he was in WWE part of his appeal was that he felt distinct from their usual presentation. Cole and O'Reilly still very much have the NXT stink on them, but they've been incorporated into existing AEW storylines rather than doing the TNA thing of just pissing away any equity you build up in your own stars the moment you can bring in a shiny new toy - if anything, part of AEW's weakness can be a propensity to bring people in and not do enough with them straight away. We saw that with Miro more than anyone - Khan seems pretty risk-averse when it comes to changing direction on a storyline, so when a new person comes in, they're quite often in a bit of a holding pattern until the planned stories pan out, and then they start working their way into bigger stories. The problem with that is you get some big hyped up debuts, and then they do a lot of nothing for weeks or months at a time. In general, that's AEW's biggest issue - pacing, both of individual shows, and of broader storytelling.

I'm not one to complain about a promotion having a bloated roster - having "too many" well known and super talented wrestlers on your books is the sort of "problem" that most promoters would kill for - but you can't ignore the fact that we're staring down the barrel of at least an 11 match PPV, which is pretty excessive. 

 

Going back to the ex-WWE point, though, is that while they might take up TV time (arguably too much), they tend to be used to better establish the more homegrown talent - Punk and Danielson, since coming in, have taken their prior credibility and used it to build up people within AEW, they've not done a Hogan in WCW and only worked with their boys or had the direction of the promotion abandoned to better suit their needs. It's still clear that there's a long-term plan for the likes of MJF, Jungle Boy, Darby Allin, and other younger talent being primed to carry the company - all of those guys are still under 30 years old, so there's no harm in a slow build for any of them. 

[Duke]

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

But that isn't a contradiction. No one here is suggesting that AEW should consist entirely of non-WWE talent. Once again, though, it's about being selective. Bringing in - and pushing - people like Punk, Danielson, Moxley and even Jericho is a no-brainer. Punk and MJF are easily the hottest acts the company has right now, so it makes absolute sense to make one of them champion. 

That doesn't have any real impact on the rest of the card, though.

Firstly, you're making an assumption on Matt Hardy, and there's no evidence to suggest the team won't be used after the PPV. 

But putting that aside - you're right, some of these wrestlers are getting TV time, but my point isn't so much that they're not, it's that they're interesting, and the former WWE acts getting featured are not. In addition, the wrestlers in question aren't getting pushed as prominently as they would had the ex-WWE guys not come in. For example, would Dynamite be more entertaining if Ethan Page, Ricky Starks or Penta was receiving Adam Cole's push? Or if The Acclaimed (or Max Caster, in the absence of Bowens) was pushed as a top level act? There are other examples I could give, but hopefully you can see my point. 

It is though, because the best way to build your show around a certain group is making them the relevant champions. For the record, I think Punk probably should beat Hangman, but I can also see a good way where he doesn't. 

 

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And the fact the other belts are on "homegrown" talent, doesn't change the fact that Dynamite, at the moment, heavily features acts who feel like WWE cast-offs, acts who don't exactly help AEW feel like its own entity. If more of them were connecting and feeling fresh, people wouldn't make making this point, but I don't think it's hard to argue that they are actually taking TV time away from acts who are connecting, and who do feel fresh. 

That's my point though. The problem isn't that they're ex-WWE, it's that they're not working. It wouldn't matter where Andrade came from, for e.g, because he's not working. Black isn't working because he's been in storyline purgatory for months and building a feud around a cheerleader that no one cares about.  

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Firstly, you're making an assumption on Matt Hardy, and there's no evidence to suggest the team won't be used after the PPV. 

Absolutely, but I think it's a reasonable one to make, because they seem to be rushing straight into this Bucks match and Jeff is increasingly not moving well. I doubt we'll see them as a pushed act after this. You're right though, I have no evidence for it.

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But putting that aside - you're right, some of these wrestlers are getting TV time, but my point isn't so much that they're not, it's that they're interesting, and the former WWE acts getting featured are not. In addition, the wrestlers in question aren't getting pushed as prominently as they would had the ex-WWE guys not come in. For example, would Dynamite be more entertaining if Ethan Page, Ricky Starks or Penta was receiving Adam Cole's push? Or if The Acclaimed (or Max Caster, in the absence of Bowens) was pushed as a top level act? There are other examples I could give, but hopefully you can see my point. 

I'm not sure many talent would do well by coming in, feuding with the best friends, getting repeatedly smashed by the champion and then flailing about with nothing to do other than the not very good Owen Hart tournament. 

I definitely think the Acclaimed could be doing more, but I'm fairly happy with him waiting for Bowens to get back to do that. Ethan Page probably could too, but Starks and Penta are featured acts on the show. If they're not clicking for you, it's not because of Adam Cole, or Andrade or Matt Hardy, it's because their storylines aren't working. 

 

I guess what I'm saying is I think "too many ex-WWE guys are on TV" is overly simplistic. Too many guys who aren't over are on tv, irrespective of where they came from. 

[Vamp]

I dunno, I think you're doing Punk a disservice there. Coming in and beating the hottest homegrown star in the company in his first match is pretty Hogan (I'm kidding).

The WWE stink thing is kinda weird because I don't think Khan necessarily cares that they're ex WWE guys. Everyone else might see Adam Cole and Kyle as people who have been stinking up the joint in NXT but I think Khan's eyes see RoH guys. He doesn't see disappointing Samoa Joe from the WWE, he says RoH Samoa Joe. 

[RedRooster]

1 minute ago, Duke said:

It is though, because the best way to build your show around a certain group is making them the relevant champions. For the record, I think Punk probably should beat Hangman, but I can also see a good way where he doesn't. 

In theory, but outside of Jade Cargill, I'd argue that they've not done well at making the current batch of champions feel relevant. That's a separate issue, of course. 

5 minutes ago, Duke said:

That's my point though. The problem isn't that they're ex-WWE, it's that they're not working. It wouldn't matter where Andrade came from, for e.g, because he's not working. Black isn't working because he's been in storyline purgatory for months and building a feud around a cheerleader that no one cares about.  

I think that's an issue too - they've apparently lost the ability to recognise when things are falling flat, and adjust accordingly, as they did with Miro and Brodie Lee. I think the issue with Black isn't so much him, it's Brodie King and Buddy Matthews - the House of Black. 

However, part of what was exciting about AEW was watching less well-known wrestlers carve out an identity. We're seeing much less of that, and we're seeing genuinely exciting wrestlers getting underpushed as a result of the influx of new talent. 

I'll agree with you to a point - it's not specifically that they're ex-WWE, it's that they feel like they're ex-WWE. If they brought in, say, W Morrisey or Steve Maclin - someone who has carved out a new identity - I wouldn't necessarily feel the way that I do. 

It wouldn't be as obvious as it is, had they not brought all of these people in so quickly. 

28 minutes ago, Vamp said:

The WWE stink thing is kinda weird because I don't think Khan necessarily cares that they're ex WWE guys. Everyone else might see Adam Cole and Kyle as people who have been stinking up the joint in NXT but I think Khan's eyes see RoH guys. He doesn't see disappointing Samoa Joe from the WWE, he says RoH Samoa Joe

Joe wasn't disappointing in WWE - although it's probably fair to say the way his time ended there was. There are plenty of great Joe moments and matches to look back on from his time there. For the most part, they used him fairly well. For the record, Joe's absolutely someone I think Tony should have brought in. 

[simonworden]

4 hours ago, Nick James said:

Can't agree with this at all. The best thing about AEW is the look and feel of the shows which are akin to Nitro etc, they even raised the lighting on fan request the other week to highlight more of the crowd. Other than the entrance being two tunnels, I definitely don't get a WWE / TNA knockoff vibe from it. 

I could take or leave the ramp to the ring, but I wouldn't say I'm clambering for them to take it away. 

I guess this is each to their own but it all feels somewhat outdated to me. Even if black is the accent color changing that where appropriate to something else would show a change for me. It might be from my recent 80's/90's WWF binge but I'd love something minimalistic coming out the corner of the arena. I reckon modern LED tech could be used to make something pretty snazzy, perhaps with an original Nitro entrance vibe....but less black. 

[BomberPat]

one of the problems with the "ex-WWE" issue is that WWE has been the only game in town for 20 years, and spent the better part of the last decade stockpiling wrestlers. Everyone and their dog is "ex-WWE" at some point or another. That, coupled with two years of mass releases and WWE completely restructuring their developmental programme, means you'd be hard-pressed to find many notable wrestlers that aren't ex-WWE. On top of that - not necessarily on here - a lot of the people who complain about over-reliance on ex-WWE talent are the first to complain when someone from Japan or the indies debuts with no hype or explanation because, "nobody knows who they are". There are missteps for sure, but I think AEW generally gets the balance right, and while I agree that they're maybe not as quick to course correct as they were in the past, I think the general pattern is as I outlined earlier, that a new signing will tend to tread water if there isn't a spot immediately available in an existing story for them, because Tony Khan is reluctant to abandon the current plan to accommodate the new talent - at which point, it might be a better idea to pay some people to sit at home until the appropriate moment. Not everybody gets the perfect timing of William Regal or Bryan Danielson's debuts - for all we can praise the job they did of redeeming Miro's initial run, he spent a good six months as Kip Sabian's running buddy first.

One thing that Cody's departure taught us is that, if anything, one of AEW's faults is in potentially leaving too many big matches on the table - the whole time Cody was there, he never wrestled Kenny Omega or Jon Moxley, nevermind Danielson or Punk.

Back on the ex-WWE topic, I think I'm going to do some back of a fag packet calculations about how many people they signed out of how many people WWE released over the past couple of years...

[BomberPat]

42 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Back on the ex-WWE topic, I think I'm going to do some back of a fag packet calculations about how many people they signed out of how many people WWE released over the past couple of years...

Right, here we go.

I went with March 2021 as my starting point for WWE releases - that's when Andrade was released, and the regular spates of releases began the following month. Between then and now, WWE have released 98 on-screen performers. 99 if you count the fact that Samoa Joe was released twice, 100 if you count Christian Cage (who I'm leaving out of the equation because he was never actually signed by WWE when he last appeared there). That number can be expanded a little higher if you include backstage staff/trainers that could conceivably have been brought in to an on-screen role with AEW - the likes of Road Dogg, Jeff Jarrett, Allison Danger, Sonjay Dutt and Scott Armstrong. That gets you to a little over 100 releases. Sonjay Dutt is someone you'd be hard-pressed to call a "WWE guy", though, given that he never had an on-screen role there that I'm aware of.

Of that list, 2 people ultimately re-signed with WWE - Drake Maverick, and Samoa Joe, who was subsequently released again. Only 21 people, out of more than 100 WWE releases, have been signed by AEW. 3 have made one-off appearances (John Hennigan, Kalisto, Big Damo)

Included in those 21 are William Regal, Paul Wight and Sonjay Dutt, none of whom are in a predominantly (if at all) in-ring capacity, the latter of whom is hard to justify as a "WWE guy" at all. So that brings us down to just 18 people who I'd consider "ex-WWE" during the timescale that we're considering an "influx" of ex-WWE guys to be the problem. They avoided the temptation to bring in some of the bigger names - no Bray Wyatt, no Braun Strowman, no Ric Flair, and some other key names that I'd have expected to show up by now like Ember Moon or Timothy Thatcher. Admittedly, the most recent batch of 11 releases won't be eligible to debut for AEW until Sunday, so maybe we see Dexter Lumis, Dakota Kai and Kushida show up managed by Malcolm Bivens there, who knows?

It's hard to argue against signing Bryan Danielson or Samoa Joe as valuable established names, and hard to argue that the likes of 2.0, Jake Atlas or Mercedes Martinez bring with them a rep of being "WWE guys". Toni Storm, Ruby Soho, Keith Lee and Swerve are perhaps more negligible, but I'd again lean towards them being valued signings. Very quickly you get to working down the list and figuring that really it's only Adam Cole, Kyle O'Reilly and Bobby Fish that feel like a problem - and I don't think it's any coincidence that they're an act that already felt stale and overexposed on NXT, but also that it's not a great look to bring in the guys who were headlining on a show you're beating in the ratings every week and treating them like a major attraction on your own show. There's some bragging rights involved in taking "their" guys, but if they weren't enough of a draw to beat you, what do they bring to the table?

My first criticism of Adam Cole in NXT was that he was just Adam Cole from ROH. He represented the pinnacle of the shift in NXT from a developmental brand to super-indie, where there was no longer even the conceit that these wrestlers were being taught to work WWE style, there was no effort to repackage them or develop them in any sense at all. Cole was the same guy he'd been in ROH, who was the same guy he'd been in PWG, and so on. He's now come to AEW, and hasn't changed one bit. So if you were sick of him and his mates on one show, chances are you'll be sick of him on the new one too, because it doesn't feel like the jump has given him a fresh lease of life or even a new coat of paint, he's doing the same schtick, with the same people, with a Jimmy Hart bootleg version of the same theme tune. That's not an ex-WWE problem, it's an Undisputed Era problem. Where people have been successful in jumping ship from WWE to AEW, it's because they've taken the opportunity to change things up and reinvent themselves to some extent - even Malakai Black brings something to the table in that respect, even if he feels like he's treading water at the moment - whereas Adam Cole reminds me of the couple of matches where they had Matt Cardona show up. He came in dressed like Zack Ryder, and did all of Zack Ryder's moves. It was "Here's Zack Ryder From The WWF", rather than an opportunity to show that he had more to offer - only, in Cardona's case, they got a couple of matches out of him and then never brought him back.

 

It might sound mad considering how big the roster already is, but one of my biggest disappointments with AEW based on the initial press conferences is how little they've leaned on their working relationships - even accounting for the pandemic fucking with some of that, and also OWE going tits up. The OWE partnership never amounted to anything more than the Strong Hearts lads showing up early on, when I really envisioned some of the OWE talent wrestling on TV representing the kind of quantum leap forward in what wrestling could be that the WCW Cruiserweight division had been in the mid-90s. Similarly, they've brought in the odd wrestler from Joshi promotions and just had them on Dark - Ryo Mizunami was brilliant for AEW, but they brought her back for a run and she never even appeared on TV. Emi Sakura hasn't been on TV in years, and Mei Suruga followed her around as a valet for months but only ever got one match out of it. The AAA relationship has amounted to having their belts show up on TV, but none of their wrestlers - Faby Apache was in a Casino Battle Royal once, but that was about it.

For all the talk of the Forbidden Door, it was that revolving door aspect of early AEW that appealed to me - that there was a core roster, but that anyone could show up on any given week; a local legend, an international star, an ex-WWE name, someone from the indies, whatever. They don't need to stick around, but that sense of AEW being part of a wider world, rather than the insularity of WWE, is one of the things I find appealing about it, and I'd love to see them do more of that. It's fun when someone like Minoru Suzuki shows up, so why not play off that a little more? Not just Suzuki, but Aja Kong could pop up for a match or two again, or Psycho Clown or El Hijo del Vikingo can pop up from AAA, more old-timers can pop in for angles from time to time. I'd like more unpredictability, but of the "you never know who might show up!" style rather than the "swerve the audience" style (which, to their credit, they've shied away from).

Edited May 24, 2022 by BomberPat

[SaitoRyo]

Kyle O'Reilly Signs New Five-Year Contract With AEW

[organizedkaos]

A better booker.

I think it's in the Double or Nothing thread where people note there's a few matches where they're less excited than they would be because of the booking.

I think Tony Kahn as a promoter / wrestling nerd has a pretty decent idea of matchups that'll interest the fans. I just don't think he knows how to get to those matchups. It's the difference between fantasy booking a good card and running a regular TV show.

For example JAS vs. BCC + Kingson/Santana/Ortiz - it's a great idea for a matchup, - it's intruiging, makes sense has great wrestlers in combinations that'll likely put on an excellent show. You've got interesting connections, ideas and histories within the teams - the different relationships between Mox, Danielson and Kingston for example.

But the way we got to it was rubbish. There was some good moments but it felt like we focussed on JAS vs Kingson/Santana/Ortiz for too long then everyone else was shoved in.  I'm sure there would've been a much more engrossing build where the idea of Mox helping out Kingston was teased, then bringing in the rest of the BCC, then Jericho escalating with too close to home comments etc etc (and maybe no arse brushes?)

 

[HarmonicGenerator]

1 hour ago, BomberPat said:

Sonjay Dutt is someone you'd be hard-pressed to call a "WWE guy", though, given that he never had an on-screen role there that I'm aware of.

...

That's not an ex-WWE problem, it's an Undisputed Era problem.

I remember seeing him as a producer stopping pull-apart brawls on 205 Live a couple of times. I don't think they ever said "Sonjay Dutt there" but if you count very brief unnamed cameos...

The second sentence I've quoted really sums it up. Nobody in AEW gives me the "oh, here we go... *rolls eyes*" reaction like the UE lads. I never enjoyed Fish in NXT, I'm sick of seeing Adam Cole, and as time's gone on I realise I only ever really liked O'Reilly when he was teaming with Roderick Strong and not the other two. Unfortunately I think they're going to remain major players on Dynamite at least until Kenny comes back from injury and they do The Elite vs UE.

[Vamp]

To an extent the numbers don't matter anyway. Its the perception. If the perception is that they're full of ex WWE guys (which I don't think it is with the majority of the audience) then that's what matters. It's the same as when WWE managed to convince everyone that WCW was full of old codgers. Even the WWE didn't believe that, but that's the way WCW was perceived. People still perceive WCW as never creating their own stars despite the existence of Sting, Goldberg, DDP, etc.

It's wrestling. The only thing that matters is perception.

[Factotum]

1 hour ago, organizedkaos said:

A better booker.

I think Tony Khan has dramatically improved the product since taking more control. He gets things wrong, but he's still pretty much learning the ropes. He's doing good numbers on TV, good PPV numbers and people like his product. Maybe he needs a bit of help sometimes, and I certainly think that would help, but all in all I don't think he's a bad booker at all.

[The Gaffer]

Yeah as much as we're all having a mope in this thread, who is actually better than Khan and whatever contingent he listens to, to book the shows? Any time people throw around booker names online it's the same half dozen old hacks who are realistically shite anyway beyond whatever boom years they were able to ride for the rest of their careers. One of the reason's AEW's been so fresh up until this point is because they've avoided succumbing to any number of perpetual carnies who'd chomp at the bit to take the reins and take us back to the good old days, brother. 

Khan's generally really good at giving his most loyal audience exactly what they want. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by Gay as FOOK

[organizedkaos]

"A better booker" might have been a bit glib and i'm probably misusing my wrestling terms here.

"A better writer"? My point very much was the cards are booked well, the storylines that lead to the cards often aren't. It's the same complaint you see multiple times. I think he's really good at booking good matches, I just think the way we get to those matches tends to reduce excitement for them.

Death Triangle vs House of Black will be an banger.  The storyline to get to it has not

 

And yeah, these actual matches booked appeal to the loyal fanbase (and others, again - they're good matches) - they appeal to me, I like good matches. I just kinda think the TV program being a bit better written might make those matches appeal more to other people than the loyal fanbase (doesn't even have to be casuals, the reactions here for double or nothing - which, is a killer card - aren't super)

 

Dunno who exactly would make for a better writer but I can't imagine no-one in the world is better at writing wrestling TV than a singular hardcore wrestling fan with tonnes of money

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by organizedkaos