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Wrestlers that could have been bigger stars


RedRooster

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2 hours ago, Egg Shen said:

was there ever any indictation that O'Haire was a troublemaker before his release? 

Post-WWE, O'Haire was one of the biggest wrestling names to move into MMA and K-1. I was quite excited for it at the time. He got battered though.

Yeah i seem to remember hearing that he had a colourful past.

What was his best performance as a pro wrestler ?

Or was it all potential ?

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29 minutes ago, Yakashi said:

For me being a star isn’t just about how many people know your name. More people know Dean Ambrose but Jon Moxley is a bigger star because the stuff he does now actually matters and has people invested. He’s far more important and popular to the audience that sees him than Ambrose ever was. Roman might not have more people that know his name now vs 5 years ago, but the stuff he’s doing now has people far more invested and everything he does comes across as the most important thing on the show.

 

For example, Darby Allin is a much bigger star to me than most of WWEs interchangeable parade of robots that no one would miss if they disappeared tomorrow. The audience is invested in Darby. He increases ratings for his matches. People care about him that watch the show. Someone like Ziggler is just a nothing to fill a void for 2/3 hours. No one gives a shit. If he wrestles or doesn’t wrestle it just doesn’t matter. 

You’re having a different discussion. You’re saying who or what you like more.

Being a star, if it means anything, is defined by numbers - the people that know you, the money you’ve made, the records you’ve broke.

Dean Ambrose was a bigger star than this iteration than Jon Moxley. Most of the WWE roster are bigger stars than Darby Allin. That’s not a determination on quality, it’s just the truth.

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27 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

You’re having a different discussion. You’re saying who or what you like more.

Being a star, if it means anything, is defined by numbers - the people that know you, the money you’ve made, the records you’ve broke.

Dean Ambrose was a bigger star than this iteration than Jon Moxley. Most of the WWE roster are bigger stars than Darby Allin. That’s not a determination on quality, it’s just the truth.

Darby Allin factually adds viewers to the show he is on. That's a fact. 95% of wwes guys are meaningless and do nothing for numbers. 

By your take Darby is a bigger star than Edge because when Edge came back numbers for his stuff were lower than everything else on the show. He was a detriment. A negative draw. A negative star. 

And I guess Liv Morgan is a bigger star than Kenny Omega or Okada because the show she's on, and contributes zero to, is watched by more people?

And its nothing to do with who I like. Darby looks like a complete geek and I can't take anything he does seriously. Edge is my favourite wrestler of the last 20 years and I think he's the best interview in the entire business. 

Edited by Yakashi
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That one legged Zach Gowen lad. Could have been a great overcoming the odds story to win a title, but he was in and gone in a few months, never even got him in one of the videogames of the day! Thankfully his memory will live on forever thanks to that vignette of Brock hoofing him down the stairs.  

Modern day WWE would cream themselves for the social media likes he'd generate.

Edited by DCW
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34 minutes ago, DCW said:

That one legged Zach Gowen lad. Could have been a great overcoming the odds story to win a title, but he was in and gone in a few months, never even got him in one of the videogames of the day! Thankfully his memory will live on forever thanks to that vignette of Brock hoofing him down the stairs.  

Modern day WWE would cream themselves for the social media likes he'd generate.

I’m kind of surprised that he’s not ended up back there, given how he’s turned his life around. He’s an even more incredible version of an already incredible story. Overcame cancer, lost a leg, became a wrestler, blew his chance in WWE, went on a downward spiral before picking himself up and turning his life around. 

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Whilst he is hovering around main events, I'd put Lashley in this category. He should be a huge star w that physique, that look and his matches aren't that bad either. I think I prefer him over Batista in most respects but he never really felt like THE guy. Lesnar v Lashley should be huge but they have really under utilised him. 

Ken Shamrock was also one who could have been a good main eventer in any other era. Sadly w Rock, Austin et al on top he had no chance. 

Vader deserved a major WWE run in the 90ss but was horribly watered down. I'd have put him over Michaels at Summerslam 96, had Hart v Vader instead of the Sid v Hart main event at IYH 12 and then had him drop the title to Michaels at RR in a huge rematch. Sadly it was a fuckin mess w Sid. Or even drop to Taker at WM (in hindsight). 

 

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4 minutes ago, RedRooster said:

I’m kind of surprised that he’s not ended up back there, given how he’s turned his life around. He’s an even more incredible version of an already incredible story. Overcame cancer, lost a leg, became a wrestler, blew his chance in WWE, went on a downward spiral before picking himself up and turning his life around. 

Vince probably still holds a grudge against him for dropkicking that chair into his face. 

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2 hours ago, Yakashi said:

Darby Allin factually adds viewers to the show he is on. That's a fact. 95% of wwes guys are meaningless and do nothing for numbers. 

By your take Darby is a bigger star than Edge because when Edge came back numbers for his stuff were lower than everything else on the show. He was a detriment. A negative draw. A negative star. 

And I guess Liv Morgan is a bigger star than Kenny Omega or Okada because the show she's on, and contributes zero to, is watched by more people?

And its nothing to do with who I like. Darby looks like a complete geek and I can't take anything he does seriously. Edge is my favourite wrestler of the last 20 years and I think he's the best interview in the entire business. 

I mean, I don’t know where to start with this.

Let’s try this - Edge has 1.7m insta followers, Darby Allin is unverified and has 168k. Darby has 123k twitter followers, Edge has 1.3m. Edge has starred in feature films and had a starring role in an internationally popular TV show. 

Has Edge’s drawing power within the ever diminishing world of wrestling viewership decreased? Undoubtedly.

Across the breadth of sports and entertainment he is in an utterly different stratosphere of stardom to Darby Allin. It’s not even close.

The Liv Morgan is an interesting one. She’s at 1.3m on Insta, 645k on twitter. Kenny Omega is 413k on Insta, 472k on twitter. She’s featured on a higher rated television show weekly, has featured on nationally syndicated reality television and has a moderately successful personal YouTube page.

I think yeah, you could argue she’s a bigger star.

But, what I will concede with a comparison like that is what’s popular within the wrestling bubble often differs from what breaks through to a broader audience. Perhaps I’m guilty of thinking ‘star’ means being able to have success across various platforms and have some sort of recognisability outside of the WWE.

Is Kenny Omega more popular to wrestling fans? Yeah, sure. Would someone like Liv Morgan be classified as a bigger star? Yeah, she would.

If you were paying someone to advertise my product, she’d command a higher fee. 

Edited by d-d-d-dAz
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3 hours ago, Yakashi said:

Darby Allin factually adds viewers to the show he is on. That's a fact. 95% of wwes guys are meaningless and do nothing for numbers. 

This is probably the clearest point here. If we're arguing that someone is a bigger star purely by virtue of working for WWE and therefore have more eyes on them than someone working for AEW, then it would follow that in 1999 Headbanger Mosh was a bigger star than Hulk Hogan because more people were watching the WWF than WCW. That would obviously be absurd.

A star is someone who attracts attention, and I would agree that Darby Allin adds value and is demonstrably a draw - more people are likely to be watching AEW when he's wrestling than when he's not. Liv Morgan (or almost anyone in WWE) is not a star by that definition, they're just people who happen to work for a popular show. At the height of the popularity of Friends, Jennifer Aniston was a star, the bloke who played Gunther wasn't. One is attracting viewers, adding value, and garnering attention, the other is little more than background colour.

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3 hours ago, RancidPunx said:

Yeah i seem to remember hearing that he had a colourful past.

What was his best performance as a pro wrestler ?

Or was it all potential ?

He was a bit of a hothead, by all accounts. Got into bar fights and stuff. 

Also as good as the Devil's Advocate seemed based on the vignettes, apparently they were the result of good editing more than anything else because he shit the bed doing promos on house shows. 

His best performances as a wrestler were probably him doing all his flips and martial arts in the dying days of WCW. Not amazing matches, but he looked really good doing it. 

Despite all his drawbacks, O'Haire should have been a much bigger deal. Great look, freaky athleticism and the cool factor. 

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55 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

I mean, I don’t know where to start with this.

Let’s try this - Edge has 1.7m insta followers, Darby Allin is unverified and has 168k. Darby has 123k twitter followers, Edge has 1.3m. Edge has starred in feature films and had a starring role in an internationally popular TV show. 

Has Edge’s drawing power within the ever diminishing world of wrestling viewership decreased? Undoubtedly.

Across the breadth of sports and entertainment he is in an utterly different stratosphere of stardom to Darby Allin. It’s not even close.

The Liv Morgan is an interesting one. She’s at 1.3m on Insta, 645k on twitter. Kenny Omega is 413k on Insta, 472k on twitter. She’s featured on a higher rated television show weekly, has featured on nationally syndicated reality television and has a moderately successful personal YouTube page.

I think yeah, you could argue she’s a bigger star.

But, what I will concede with a comparison like that is what’s popular within the wrestling bubble often differs from what breaks through to a broader audience. Perhaps I’m guilty of thinking ‘star’ means being able to have success across various platforms and have some sort of recognisability outside of the WWE.

Is Kenny Omega more popular to wrestling fans? Yeah, sure. Would someone like Liv Morgan be classified as a bigger star? Yeah, she would.

If you were paying someone to advertise my product, she’d command a higher fee. 

Jesus Christ. Liv Morgan is a bigger star than Kenny Omega. Whatever works for you :)

 

And imagine using social media numbers as any kind of argument. Hulk Hogan (!!!!) has 2.2m Twitter followers. Ric Flair has 1.1m. Becky has 1.9m 

Zack Ryder has 2.1m. All those years of Zack drawing MSG sellouts and pulling millions of buys on PPV

Edited by Yakashi
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16 minutes ago, Yakashi said:

Jesus Christ. Liv Morgan is a bigger star than Kenny Omega. Whatever works for you :)

 

And imagine using social media numbers as any kind of argument. Hulk Hogan (!!!!) has 2.2m Twitter followers. Ric Flair has 1.1m. Becky has 1.9m 

Zack Ryder has 2.1m. All those years of Zack drawing MSG sellouts and pulling millions of buys on PPV

Social media numbers are the industry standard, alongside google analytics, for deciding someone’s relative fame levels.

I’m not arguing that Kenny Omega isn’t a bigger deal within the wrestling bubble, in fact I’ve conceded that my understanding of ‘star’ is influenced more by outside factors. 
 

If I was hiring talent to endorse my product/business, by current industry standards, Liv Morgan would be a) more expensive and b) more appealing to my superiors. Higher social media following, bigger platform.

If you’ve not been in WWE, your ability to be ‘famous’ outside the wrestling bubble is severely handicapped.

But, goes back to my original point of how hard it is to define what ‘star’ actually means. For me, it’s that ability to translate your platform to success outside the wrestling bubble. For others, it might mean the ability to reach your full potential within the wrestling bubble and the different metrics that are used to define success within that.

Using my personal definition, I think Samoa Joe, Ryback and Chris Masters had potential to win world titles and have some recognition outside of wrestling. So yeah, I guess that’s how I interpret the thread.

Edited by d-d-d-dAz
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1 hour ago, Yakashi said:

And imagine using social media numbers as any kind of argument. Hulk Hogan (!!!!) has 2.2m Twitter followers. Ric Flair has 1.1m. Becky has 1.9m 

Zack Ryder has 2.1m. All those years of Zack drawing MSG sellouts and pulling millions of buys on PPV

As long as they're viewed in a sensible context then why wouldn't you use them in an argument? Star power is social media driven more than ever. Not as a single metric (unless you're an influencer) but it's an extremely valuable part of status.

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When people leave wwe, casuals ask them if they have retired. When someone leaves another company and goes to wwe, no one asks them if they are retired. In terms of worldwide popularity and visibility, everyone on wwe tv is a bigger star than aew just now. 

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9 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

As long as they're viewed in a sensible context then why wouldn't you use them in an argument? Star power is social media driven more than ever. Not as a single metric (unless you're an influencer) but it's an extremely valuable part of status.

Yeah, ‘star power’ is a calculation based on a number of factors. But social media is the most immediate way we have, alongside google analytics, of establishing someone’s fame.
 

You put that alongside the fact that WWE has the higher rated programming, the bigger digital reach and the more international partners and you do start to weigh the scale in favour of most WWE superstars being bigger names/stars than anyone outside that club.

 

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