Death of the Union.

[RancidPunx]

Not trolling at @David , but would you not rather be ruled by Edinburgh than London ?

In one sense , is now not an ideal time to break away ?

The EU would bend over backwards to make sure Scotland isn’t a failure surely ? How much credence would it give to the EU as a concept , if Scotland joined and the country became a failed state ? 

Not to use the Brexit leave strategy but how much money does Scotland make that is sent to London , and how much of that gets reinvested back into Scotland directly ?

 

You sound like you know what you are talking about so would I be interested in getting your thoughts. I know fuck all about this kind of stuff but I do want to become more informed . 

Im Irish so am biased consciously and unconsciously no doubt, so apologies if I come off as anti-U.K or any or other country in any regard ... Not intended , I assure you.

Edited January 26, 2021 by RancidPunx

[RancidPunx]

1 minute ago, garynysmon said:

Don't forget HS2, which will actually divert trade away from Wales but we're still paying for. Ditto Trident.

Can't see an indy Wales having an expensive nuclear arsenal, can you?

Do you think Wales would be able to stand on its own two feet as a country ?

[garynysmon]

1 minute ago, RancidPunx said:

Do you think Wales would be able to stand on its own two feet as a country ?

Well, I look at it this way.

How many countries have decided to leave the British empire/rule over the past 60 years, and how many have asked for London to take them back?

Its a very simplistic answer but yes I do, there are several much smaller nation states in the EU that are faring as well or better than we are at present.

[RancidPunx]

3 minutes ago, garynysmon said:

Well, I look at it this way.

How many countries have decided to leave the British empire/rule over the past 60 years, and how many have asked for London to take them back?

Its a very simplistic answer but yes I do, there are several much smaller nation states in the EU that are faring as well or better than we are at present.

What countries in the EU would be comparable ?

[stumobir]

13 minutes ago, garynysmon said:

Its a very simplistic answer but yes I do, there are several much smaller nation states in the EU that are faring as well or better than we are at present.

Yeah, I’ve always wondered why, based on nothing, Scotland and Wales would be anomalies in NW Europe and become pauper states if they left the UK, it’s almost like the people saying it have skin in the game. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by stumobir

[Keith Houchen]

1 hour ago, RancidPunx said:

What countries in the EU would be comparable ?

Could the Baltic states be classed as comparable? Or any that were part of former communist countries?

[David]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:20 PM, RancidPunx said:

Not trolling at @David , but would you not rather be ruled by Edinburgh than London ?

In an ideal world, yes. But to the possible detriment of Scottish quality of life and public services? No. It would need to make sound financial sense for me to consider voting for independence, and as I said, I'm open to being convinced when the time comes.

On 1/26/2021 at 6:20 PM, RancidPunx said:

The EU would bend over backwards to make sure Scotland isn’t a failure surely ? How much credence would it give to the EU as a concept , if Scotland joined and the country became a failed state ? 

It's not about the EU allowing Scotland to fail. It would be about what the EU expects Scottish politicians to do in order to ensure that the country is on course to at least attempt to meet the financial requirements. 

Look at Greece as an example. The country was on its knees financially, and a loan of €130 billion from the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF was contingent on the Greek government implementing crippling austerity measures on its people. Then when the Greek government had the sheer audacity to consider allowing the Greek people a say in proceedings by way of a referendum on the bailout, the EU threatened to withhold an overdue payment that the Greek government badly needed.

Obviously Scotland isn't in the same position Greece is in, but the EU and those who control the purse strings bend over backwards for no one. Scotland included.

On 1/26/2021 at 6:20 PM, RancidPunx said:

Not to use the Brexit leave strategy but how much money does Scotland make that is sent to London , and how much of that gets reinvested back into Scotland directly ?

I don't think it can be calculated as easily as that really, because the truth is that London accounts for almost 30 percent of overall national tax intake according to this information, and the same question could then be asked as to how much of that gets reinvested back into London directly? I know that link highlights figures from a few years back, but I don't imagine it's changed all that drastically since. If it has, then fair enough.

I don't think it should be looked at as "well, Scotland sends x amount into the national tax coffers and should receive exactly that back." We should be dealing with the distribution of tax money as a whole, based on needs and requirements, not based on which regions provide certain amounts to the pot.

The bottom line is, and I know many Scots don't like to hear it, but Scotland benefits greatly from being part of the UK. And likewise the UK benefits as a whole from its constituent countries. 

That could change in years to come, and I'd be open to the independence discussion at that point. When we're dealing with the fallout of Brexit and a crippling pandemic, I just don't think it's an issue that needs to be brought up and have valuable resources spent on it right now.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

From a personal point of view I want the Union to remain. I love the cultures and histories we all have. 

 

But.

 

I would probably want to leave if I was from a home nation that wasn't England. I maybe wouldn't want it straight away, for many of the reasons David has said, but I would want away from the Tory government as soon as it was feasible.

One thing I remember seeing brought up during the indyref was if Spain would block an independent Scotland from joining the EU in order to dissuade independence pushes from Catatonia. Did Spain ever say anything to the contrary?

[David]

3 minutes ago, ReturnOfTheMack said:

I would probably want to leave if I was from a home nation that wasn't England. I maybe wouldn't want it straight away, for many of the reasons David has said, but I would want away from the Tory government as soon as it was feasible.

I'd rather we instead chose to not vote in the 'Tories, personally. 

Another question for those who may know the answer: Although Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are relatively small in number, how would losing those votes in a general election change things? I know Scotland never votes Conservative, not sure about Wales although I don't imagine they do either. 

Would Scotland and Wales leaving make it even harder for England to ditch Boris* and chums?

 

*Just for you, Keith 

[PowerButchi]

North Wales went Tory, mainly due to Brexit.

 

Edited January 28, 2021 by PowerButchi

[Carbomb]

Needs more green.

 

1 hour ago, David said:

The bottom line is, and I know many Scots don't like to hear it, but Scotland benefits greatly from being part of the UK. And likewise the UK benefits as a whole from its constituent countries. 

That could change in years to come, and I'd be open to the independence discussion at that point. When we're dealing with the fallout of Brexit and a crippling pandemic, I just don't think it's an issue that needs to be brought up and have valuable resources spent on it right now.

But that's why independence has become a big thing now, no? It's because the benefits of being part of the UK are being eroded by Brexit, benefits that many Scots saw as a result of the UK being in the EU, which were promised by the government and then effectively reneged on by England?

Put it this way: from the body of narrative that's been built up over the years, I've been given the impression that Scots are resentful towards England because of how they've been treated more as a fiefdom than a partner in the Union, and that the only thing that's held back a full tide towards independence has been the economic bounty. Now they're seeing that one benefit stripped away by Brexit, I guess the question being asked is "Well, what's keeping us here?"

Obviously, you'll have way more knowledge about this than I will, so I'd be genuinely interested to hear your perspective on this particular question: what's likely to be more punishing economically but better for Scotland in the long run, independence or Brexit?

[garynysmon]

The gerrymandering boundary review and slashing of Welsh MPs by a quarter isn't going to help Labour's prospects in any UK General Election going forward either. (We'll ignore Butch's map which was a bit of a one-off due to the pig headed Brexit vote coalescing behind one party on the whole).

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/england-10-more-mps-wales-19566486

 

 

[PowerButchi]

Yeah, my constituency is picking up a load of rural land from Powys, so Labour's going to be fucked here good and proper.

[David]

13 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

But that's why independence has become a big thing now, no? It's because the benefits of being part of the UK are being eroded by Brexit, benefits that many Scots saw as a result of the UK being in the EU, which were promised by the government and then effectively reneged on by England?

Not really, no. Brexit is an excuse mainly for a hatred of all things 'Tory, and to a lesser degree, English when it comes to certain elements within Scottish society. Us Scots have long had a chip on our shoulders when it comes to England, and the SNP and Nicola Sturgeon is providing a masterclass in exploiting that. Granted, she's being assisted by Boris Johnson for sure, but still.

If Scots were as concerned about meat and potato politics as much as they like to think they are, they'd be calling the SNP into question over their record during the past decade or so. But they never will, because more important than the fact that the SNP have failed miserably on most fronts is the end goal of independence.

Look at the SNP's recent record on education, for example. Their record on health matters isn't much better. 

I may be old fashioned, but I prefer to see a government that focuses on education, health, and the economy. But, if I ever dared to raise these issues I'd be accused of being unpatriotic and a 'Tory sympathiser.

I'm sure there'll be those who blame all of our ills on interference from London, but if you look closely at the powers the SNP have access to, you'll see that's not quite the case.

27 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

Put it this way: from the body of narrative that's been built up over the years, I've been given the impression that Scots are resentful towards England because of how they've been treated more as a fiefdom than a partner in the Union, and that the only thing that's held back a full tide towards independence has been the economic bounty. Now they're seeing that one benefit stripped away by Brexit, I guess the question being asked is "Well, what's keeping us here?"

As I said above, Brexit or not, Scotland is better off in the Union than out at the moment in my opinion. Again, I'm open to being convinced otherwise, but it's going to take more than vague nationalistic chatter about how well we can do without England holding us back.

I'm looking for hard facts and figures. If a referendum is ever announced I'll scrutinise the white paper and listen to credible arguments both for and against. Until then I'm dubious, but not beyond changing my mind.

[Carbomb]

It's an interesting perspective, when you put it that way. One of the things that's pissed me off the most about this government is how their voters refuse to even voice criticism of the shit-show they've been running, on the sole basis that BJ is "getting Brexit done", as if even admitting Tory shithousery will endanger the chances of holding on to their Precious. From what you say there, sounds like SNP supporters are doing the same (I'll have to read those records, though - I have heard varying reports from different people as to how well the SNP's doing in govt.).

One point that someone raised, though, is that other nations have been able to achieve independence and qualify for EU membership, so I do think it's odd that it's such an accepted idea that Scotland couldn't. Croatia and Slovenia, for example, are countries with much smaller populations, and presumably smaller economies than a potential independent Scotland's would be, not to mention that they achieved independence through bloody wars that left them in absolute states for the next several years. Not saying it's a reason to go independent, but it just seems strange that that particular argument is considered to be such a strong one.