The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[Mr Butternut Squash]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:38 PM, Vamp said:

I'm not convinced the plan ever was to make Cody the man though. I think they look at him as the same age as Roman, with probably as many miles on the clock physically, and just don't see him as the one to beat Reigns. 

Considering Cody vs Roman was plan C for Mania last year this is probably spot on, which is madness really. As always, I'm not convinced there's any plan beyond Roman.

[air_raid]

8 hours ago, Gooner said:

I'm all for The Rock vs Reigns at Wrestlemania. Cody Rhodes can finish his story at another event, at another time.

Absolutely. Cody doesn’t need to take the belt at Mania 40 having been back two years and having failed to do at 39. Remember how they held off on Roman himself regaining a World title for two years, Lugered him at Mania 34 then finally re-anointed him at (looks it up) SummerSlam 2018? Didn’t do any harm to Reigns getting over as the next top babyface at all, did it?

4 hours ago, Ranmoor said:

Obviously I am unable to crunch the numbers that matter to the TV companies but can anyone explain why Rock vs Reigns is bigger than Rock vs Reigns vs Cody at mania.

I don’t think anyone has made that implication? This might be the first time I’ve seen the triple threat suggested at all.

4 hours ago, Mr Butternut Squash said:

Considering Cody vs Roman was plan C for Mania last year this is probably spot on, which is madness really. As always, I'm not convinced there's any plan beyond Roman.

Plan C? If Plan A was Roman vs Rock, what was Plan B?

[Mr Butternut Squash]

3 hours ago, air_raid said:

Plan C? If Plan A was Roman vs Rock, what was Plan B?

They were ringing up Austin.

[air_raid]

2 minutes ago, Mr Butternut Squash said:

They were ringing up Austin.

Only if you believe Sapp in regards to a match with Reigns.

Meltzer was reporting in late 22 that they were discussing potentially buying Punk out of his AEW contract to negotiate a match with Austin, then later revealed that the match they actually tried to negotiate was Lesnar vs Austin and rebuffed claims that there was ever "serious" (Dave's word) discussion of Reigns vs Austin.  When Austin didn't come to terms they offered Wyatt to Lesnar but he said no (not for the first time) so they moved Lashley vs Wyatt. Which didnt happen because Bray was hurt. Of course, as mentioned earlier, The Rock himself claimed (in September) he was pencilled in to wrestle his pretend cousin at Mania.

They wanted to get Punk vs Austin, then later they wanted Austin vs Lesnar. They wanted Reigns vs Rock. They never really planned Reigns vs Austin. Depending on who you believe, of course.

[Gooner]

4 hours ago, air_raid said:

Absolutely. Cody doesn’t need to take the belt at Mania 40 having been back two years and having failed to do at 39. Remember how they held off on Roman himself regaining a World title for two years, Lugered him at Mania 34 then finally re-anointed him at (looks it up) SummerSlam 2018? Didn’t do any harm to Reigns getting over as the next top babyface at all, did it?

 

Wasn't Reigns at the time getting booed because people thought he was being shoved down their throats? When he did beat Lesnar at Summerslam wasn't he then diagnosed with leukemia and had to give the title up. I can't properly remember that time frame of when all of that went down. I'm saying what I would like to see, business wise I'm not fussed what works for them, that isn't my job but if I have the option I want Reigns vs The Rock every day of the week over Reigns vs Rhodes 2 at Mania 40. Rhodes from what I heard on this show is still hugely over with the crowd, even after what happened at last year's Wrestlemania. 

[air_raid]

10 minutes ago, Gooner said:

I'm saying what I would like to see, business wise I'm not fussed what works for them, that isn't my job

Sure. I was in the same boat when Rock came back first time around. My "good for the business" head felt it would make great sense for him to lose that (first) match to Cena to further establish John as the new top guy for the foreseeable future, then when he actually showed up I marked out heavily (as a huge fan of his from 97-2004) and was delighted for him to beat Cena, who I was sour on at the time. It even gave a great story for John and his redemption leading into his next mountain to climb, the returning Lesnar. But of course, there was a rematch a year later that had to suck in the title and the Rumble to make sense, and looking back at Mania 27-29 now.... well, the belt's back on Cena at the end, not much has really been gained other than pissing off Punk and his reign being ended so the belt could be involved when Rock did the favour for Cena which truthfully, he didn't really need. I'd be far more up for Rock vs Cena today, to be fair. We're not pissing around involving the title being contested between TWO part-timers (again) and further delaying getting the new face in position.

16 minutes ago, Gooner said:

Rhodes from what I heard on this show is still hugely over with the crowd, even after what happened at last year's Wrestlemania. 

Which is a credit to him, and they should be grateful nobody perceives him as a loser after they made him look like one. So... surely, you pull the trigger now? Enough's enough. Put your new guy on the spot in time, or people won't give a shit when you do and you'll end up looking for someone else.

See also - Rollins, who lost a World title and got betrayed in 2016 then had to wait until 2019 to finally win one again when he could have been made into a top babyface, except they were too busy false-starting and Lugering "the Big Dog" over and over again. They turned against him. Much the same as ROH made everyone wait far too long for him to win the belt, and had to turn him heel before he lost it because they'd missed the boat and people rejected him.

Rock's had his day in the sun, more than enough of them. We need a hero for the next 5 years, not for 2-3 matches a year. It's Cody's time.

[BomberPat]

7 minutes ago, air_raid said:

Which is a credit to him, and they should be grateful nobody perceives him as a loser after they made him look like one. So... surely, you pull the trigger now? Enough's enough. Put your new guy on the spot in time, or people won't give a shit when you do and you'll end up looking for someone else.

They made Cody look like a loser, and then the next night made him look like a gullible loser for believing that Brock Lesnar would be his tag partner, and getting turned on. That alone could have been insurmountable, let alone the better part of a year of WWE booking since, so it's a miracle that the crowd still seem to be behind him at all. I expect part of that is because people have a sense that their patience will be rewarded and he'll get the big win this year - if that doesn't happen, I don't think they can drag this out any longer. They're already risking his win not being as big as it could have been the first time around, I don't think people will be happy to wait for round three, or for just slotting him into a match with Rollins or Orton instead.

The other thing at play is that Cody used to claim that he would retire at 40. He's 38. Now, I don't really believe that he's going to retire at 40, but if we take him at his word, that's two years they can get out of him before he's done, so you'd want to strike while the iron's hot. Because realistically, what's the alternative? The Rock isn't sticking around, who knows what the future holds as far as CM Punk is concerned, but he's not the guy to build your company around long-term even if only because of his age and him seemingly being injury-prone even before you get into any risk of backstage shenanigans. Then who? LA Knight or Damien Priest, two "up-and-comers" in their early 40s? 

They're best bets for a bonafide top babyface coming out of Wrestlemania are Cody Rhodes or a babyface-turned Roman Reigns. They have no one else in a position to fill that spot, and it's a problem entirely of their own making. 

[LaGoosh]

3 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The other thing at play is that Cody used to claim that he would retire at 40. He's 38. 

Cody Rhodes is a renowned and self-admitted massive liar. I wouldn't believe anything he says in public. 

[d-d-d-dAz]

Also when you're in your late 20's and even early 30's, 40 seems a million years away and like it's the oldest age ever.

All of sudden you turn 35 and your perspective changes...

[BomberPat]

20 minutes ago, LaGoosh said:

Cody Rhodes is a renowned and self-admitted massive liar. I wouldn't believe anything he says in public. 

oh yeah, I don't believe it at all, I just used it as a point to bring up that WWE has an aging upper card - even though a 40 year old wrestler in 2024 is a very different proposition to a 40 year old wrestler in 1994, it's still something they have to bear in mind if they're really thinking long-term and looking for the next John Cena to carry the company for an extended period; Cody could be that guy for 5 years, but will he be for 10? And if he's the guy for 5, is there anyone waiting in the wings to heat up for after him? The Performance Center has been firing blanks for a decade on that front.

[Supremo]

It’s always worth remembering that they had Sami Zayn as the hottest babyface in decades and they chose to cool him down on purpose. I’ll never get over it. Honestly, every way in which their business turned around? Sami deserves so much credit for it. I don’t believe half of it happens without the Sami-Zayn-in-The-Bloodline saga.

[RedRooster]

1 minute ago, BomberPat said:

And if he's the guy for 5, is there anyone waiting in the wings to heat up for after him? The Performance Center has been firing blanks for a decade on that front.

I suppose they can look beyond the Performance Centre for the next big thing these days - maybe they fancy their chances at nabbing MJF in the future, or Wardlow? Perhaps there’s someone in New Japan or MLW that takes their fancy? Maybe they’ll push a female wrestler as their centrepiece star?  

I’m not sure I agree that the Centre has been firing blanks though, particularly when it comes to the women’s division. But even for the men, NXT was producing capable wrestlers that generally did not fit the vision Vince McMahon had. Under a different regime, some of them would have become much bigger stars. It’ll be interesting to see how call-ups are treated over the next few years, compared to how they were under Vince.  

[d-d-d-dAz]

19 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

oh yeah, I don't believe it at all, I just used it as a point to bring up that WWE has an aging upper card - even though a 40 year old wrestler in 2024 is a very different proposition to a 40 year old wrestler in 1994, it's still something they have to bear in mind if they're really thinking long-term and looking for the next John Cena to carry the company for an extended period; Cody could be that guy for 5 years, but will he be for 10? And if he's the guy for 5, is there anyone waiting in the wings to heat up for after him? The Performance Center has been firing blanks for a decade on that front.

They're in a different space now to when they signed Cody, too.

Then, they probably were thinking about one guy who could be their 'top star'. They seem to have moved into their own Galactico era though, bringing in top stars for short stints to boost numbers. The roster at the minute is insane, in terms of people who can have short runs on top before being swapped out.

They're probably happy without a single big star.

Edited January 4, 2024 by d-d-d-dAz

[Gooner]

1 hour ago, air_raid said:

Sure. I was in the same boat when Rock came back first time around. My "good for the business" head felt it would make great sense for him to lose that (first) match to Cena to further establish John as the new top guy for the foreseeable future, then when he actually showed up I marked out heavily (as a huge fan of his from 97-2004) and was delighted for him to beat Cena, who I was sour on at the time. It even gave a great story for John and his redemption leading into his next mountain to climb, the returning Lesnar. But of course, there was a rematch a year later that had to suck in the title and the Rumble to make sense, and looking back at Mania 27-29 now.... well, the belt's back on Cena at the end, not much has really been gained other than pissing off Punk and his reign being ended so the belt could be involved when Rock did the favour for Cena which truthfully, he didn't really need. I'd be far more up for Rock vs Cena today, to be fair. We're not pissing around involving the title being contested between TWO part-timers (again) and further delaying getting the new face in position.

Which is a credit to him, and they should be grateful nobody perceives him as a loser after they made him look like one. So... surely, you pull the trigger now? Enough's enough. Put your new guy on the spot in time, or people won't give a shit when you do and you'll end up looking for someone else.

See also - Rollins, who lost a World title and got betrayed in 2016 then had to wait until 2019 to finally win one again when he could have been made into a top babyface, except they were too busy false-starting and Lugering "the Big Dog" over and over again. They turned against him. Much the same as ROH made everyone wait far too long for him to win the belt, and had to turn him heel before he lost it because they'd missed the boat and people rejected him.

Rock's had his day in the sun, more than enough of them. We need a hero for the next 5 years, not for 2-3 matches a year. It's Cody's time.

I enjoyed  the whole build up even with it being long between The Rock and John Cena. It was something completely different build up wise  knowing it would come around a year later. What is good or best for business is for them to decide. It may be they don't think Cody Rhodes is the guy or they may just not want to interrupt Roman Reigns historic championship run.

Rhodes got put over huge by Lesnar at Summerslam so that certainly helped that they had that whole build up to go with after his Wrestlemania loss to Reigns. 

I don't remember much about Rollins run as champ besides him beating Lesnar in opening match of one off the Wrestlemania's and getting injured at some point and I never seen any of his ROH run to know how that all went down rightly or wrongly. 

You obviously very much emotionally invested in Cody Rhodes being the man and being the one to dethrone Reigns, but can it not happen on another PPV event? The Rock vs Roman Reigns may only be able to happen this year and if that is the case it needs to take place on  the biggest show of them all.

[BomberPat]

36 minutes ago, Supremo said:

It’s always worth remembering that they had Sami Zayn as the hottest babyface in decades and they chose to cool him down on purpose. I’ll never get over it. Honestly, every way in which their business turned around? Sami deserves so much credit for it. I don’t believe half of it happens without the Sami-Zayn-in-The-Bloodline saga.

For sure, I think Sami's involvement kept the Bloodline story going for longer than it otherwise would have done, or at the very least made it far more interesting than the endless run of Roman beating everybody with over-acted Reigns/Uso melodrama.

I think there's something to be said for the fact that, after years of being told that top stars have to be unbeatable superheroes, the most compelling stuff of the last few years has all been about babyfaces showing emotional vulnerability - Sami in the Bloodline, Hangman Page's arc, Eddie Kingston fighting against his own insecurities, even babyface MJF.