David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 14 hours ago, Gay as FOOK said: But the guy had one good run. The key factor for me was that Bischoff's run actually helped turn a professional company around, rather than shafting talent with cheques that bounced and generally being shit at business like Heyman was. Also, it wasn't "one good run" it was "the fucking definitive run" when it came to competing with the juggernaut that is WWF. That cannot be overstated. I know Heyman is the darling of a decent chunk of the wrestling fanbase, and he has done some great things, but by fuck is his legacy seen through rose-tinted glasses. Edited October 16, 2019 by David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, David said: I know Heyman is the darling of a decent chunk of the wrestling fanbase, and he has done some great things, but by fuck is his legacy seen through rose-tinted glasses. On here? You can't like anything he's ever done without someone crying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeRobertsParoleOfficer Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, David said: The key factor for me was that Bischoff's run actually helped turn a professional company around, rather than shafting talent with cheques that bounced and generally being shit at business like Heyman was. Also, it wasn't "one good run" it was "the fucking definitive run" when it came to competing with the juggernaut that is WWF. That cannot be overstated. I know Heyman is the darling of a decent chunk of the wrestling fanbase, and he has done some great things, but by fuck is his legacy seen through rose-tinted glasses. I prefer Eric over Paul 10000% however the reality is that he: Had unlimited funds Owner who owned the network (and could play funny business with timings) That's a huge factor whether anyone wants to believe it or not. He could offer a much richer package than WWF. That was a amazing run but it wasn't sustainable and Whatsmore it pretty much did kill the company financially when the bubble burst. Im not saying its not incredible it is, however you have to look at what came after, and what they had to work with. Heyman has the greater body of work for an individual. Eric has the greater industry achievement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 1 minute ago, JakeRobertsParoleOfficer said: I prefer Eric over Paul 10000% however the reality is that he: Had unlimited funds Why aren't WCW still in business then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, JakeRobertsParoleOfficer said: The money is what brought them to the table. Does anyone really think that if Eric didn't have the money to buy talent that they'd have ever competed The money is what brings everyone to the table. Do you think that if Vince didn't have the money to buy talent early into his WWF tenure that they'd have become the main name in professional wrestling? Of course not. It's a business based on making money, so very few individuals are going anywhere unless the money is good. 13 minutes ago, JakeRobertsParoleOfficer said: Whatsmore by 1998 wcw was done, stale and a mess. All the stars were still there it just ran out of ideas, stars became insane divas, money was spent on insane ideas and it imploded. There's a whole lot more to the story than that though, isn't there? It's not as though Bischoff had complete control over the company in the way Vince has. WCW was always just a smaller part of a larger entity, and with a set up like that there's always going to be obstacles to overcome, as well as benefits to be enjoyed. The decline in WCW was partly down to Bischoff, but not entirely. There were a lot of extenuating circumstances involved. 15 minutes ago, JakeRobertsParoleOfficer said: That's why I rate Heyman higher. He's had continued personal success in wrestling (not talking financial here) with just himself and far less resources. Heyman's run with ECW lasted a total of two years, and during that time he stiffed talent who put themselves through insane physical abuse out of their agreed pay. You can't pick & choose the factors you want to involve in the debate. Heyman fucked up financially while controlling an entity that was relatively small and that should have been easy to manage. Bischoff took a company that was blowing out its arse, the redheaded stepchild of Turner, and turned it around for a period of time. That has to be part of the conversation, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeRobertsParoleOfficer Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) Why aren't WCW still in business? Because the product was dead by 1999, they were paying c list talent huge money There networks merged and it became a product they didn't want Eric was burnt out by 1998 and had nothing left in tank and was removed. Wcw had poached all the talent and by 200p the networks were not going to let them offer Austin, and rock stupid money. WWF with the influx of new fresh talent was better. . Edited October 16, 2019 by JakeRobertsParoleOfficer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, JakeRobertsParoleOfficer said: Why aren't WCW still in business? Because the product was dead by 1999, they were paying c list talent huge money There networks merged and it became a product they didn't want Eric was burnt out by 1998 and had nothing left in tank and was removed. Wcw had poached all the talent and by 200p the networks were not going to let them offer Austin, and rock stupid money. WWF with the influx of new fresh talent was better. Didn't have unlimited money then, did he. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said: Didn't have unlimited money then, did he. He DID have unlimited money. Then the merger happened and suddenly they didn't have Billionaire Ted to happily bankroll them anymore because he was no longer in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) What makes me laugh is the WWE's narrative that it was Vince vs Ted Turner. In reality, other than a general wish to get one over on McMahon, Ted Turner paid very little heed to what WCW did on a day to day basis. Other than commissioning Nitro (and that meeting with Bischoff where he panicked, which we've heard about a million times), you hear of very little input from Ted Turner himself. He liked the idea of having wrestling on his networks, but that's basically as far as it ever went. Edited October 16, 2019 by garynysmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 31 minutes ago, JakeRobertsParoleOfficer said: Alot of wcw appeal was "who will jump from wwf" or appear next. If it were all about the money, and all about which WWF star shows up next, then TNA would have been able to get a decent rating from Hogan, Jeff Hardy, Kurt Angle et al. Wrestling has never been about the names in isolation, but in how they're packaged - and in the mid-90s, WCW was doing a much, much better job at promoting those names than the WWF were with theirs. It was never a TNA situation where guys were wrestling on TV every week but being stopped in airports and asked, "why aren't you wrestling any more?". Ted Turner's money was without doubt a massive contributing factor in Bischoff's success. But the fact that WCW didn't have similar success under Kip Frey, Bill Watts, Vince Russo or Kevin Sullivan would suggest that it can't have been the only factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Hannibal Scorch said: He DID have unlimited money. Then the merger happened and suddenly they didn't have Billionaire Ted to happily bankroll them anymore because he was no longer in charge. So, like JRPO, you are confusing 'unlimited' with 'a lot of'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said: He DID have unlimited money. He didn't have unlimited money. He had a very good budget, and was able to offer deals that WWF at the time refused to match. Also, let's not pretend that WWF couldn't match them, WWF didn't want to match them. We're not talking about a company that was operating on a shoestring budget as Vince would have you believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 1 minute ago, David said: He didn't have unlimited money. He had a very good budget, and was able to offer deals that WWF at the time refused to match. Also, let's not pretend that WWF couldn't match them, WWF didn't want to match them. We're not talking about a company that was operating on a shoestring budget as Vince would have you believe. How much couldn't they pay Bret Hart over that long contract they offered him? 3 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said: So, like JRPO, you are confusing 'unlimited' with 'a lot of'. Potato, tomato Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, David said: The key factor for me was that Bischoff's run actually helped turn a professional company around, rather than shafting talent with cheques that bounced and generally being shit at business like Heyman was. Also, it wasn't "one good run" it was "the fucking definitive run" when it came to competing with the juggernaut that is WWF. That cannot be overstated. I know Heyman is the darling of a decent chunk of the wrestling fanbase, and he has done some great things, but by fuck is his legacy seen through rose-tinted glasses. Yep, still one good run. Again I have great time for the guy, but he had one seriously fucking impressive hot streak and has done virtually nothing of note since. His Monday Night War was a masterstroke anomaly and all the good it done them was undone in about the same record amount of time. It was a great, great house of cards for two or three years that came along at precisely the time the world was ready for it. Since then he became Gay as FOOK's favourite General Manager ever, gave us all a chuckle for awhile in his and Hogan's incarnation of TNA and has been - as a personality - still dining on that time he beat WWE for 83 weeks. The fact that it's the name of his podcast even makes me twinge a little for him, though admittedly there's us and dem out there as an audience for the endless, endless retrospect. The fact that he got the gig - even if it was a paper crown - is testament to the fact that so few people understand 'rasslin and can liaise it with a major network more than anything else. Other than that, the 90s were a long time ago. And if you leave them off the resume I probably have relatives with a better IMDb portfolio. Anyway this is all addendum. He came, he got some catering, he left. Edited October 16, 2019 by Gay as FOOK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Just now, Hannibal Scorch said: How much couldn't they pay Bret Hart over that long contract they offered him? They could have paid him what they'd agreed with him, but Vince decided that he didn't want to pay him that amount of money. WWF back then could have offered its top talent guaranteed contracts. They simply chose not to, because, just as is the case now, WWE is a shitarse of a company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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