Paid Members tiger_rick Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Factotum said: Fact was, all three of them were blowing money on unnecessary shit to try and compete with each other or simply survive at one point or another. 94-2000 is littered with awful deals and money being blown on talent. Stop being rational and allow this discussion on some of the most complex characters in wrestling history to be reduced to one liners about Turner's money and bouncy cheques. Edited October 16, 2019 by tiger_rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) Aside from the huge guaranteed money contract given to Marc Mero, McMahon offered the Ultimate Warrior a 5 year contract, $750,000 downside, with a better merchandise percentage than everyone else in the company, in December 1997. Barely more than a month after Survivor Series '97. The money was there for the people Vince felt warranted it. Edited October 16, 2019 by BomberPat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Gay as FOOK said: Again I have great time for the guy, but he had one seriously fucking impressive hot streak and has done virtually nothing of note since. His Monday Night War was a masterstroke anomaly and all the good it done them was undone in about the same record amount of time. It was a great, great house of cards for two or three years that came along at precisely the time the world was ready for it. I think you're maybe making the mistake of looking at things purely from an on-screen product perspective. He did a hell of a lot more than just throw Hogan, Hall & Nash on the telly and sling on his leather jacket while forgetting to shave most weeks. He took a company, a part of a larger entity, that had been failing badly for years under various leadership figures, and turned it around financially. Not only that, he did it in spite of most of the hierarchy of said larger entity wanting him to fail and the wrestling product to die quietly in the corner. As Pat said, if it was simply due to Turner's money, why hadn't anyone before him succeeded? It takes more than a healthy chequebook to get it done in the way Bischoff did. As for it coming undone? Again, as is usually the case with a company like Turner and all the shit that comes along with such an organisation, there were a lot of factors. Once WCW started to succeed, higher level execs who couldn't be fucked with it previously wanted to get involved. It was a hot product, their boss fucking loved it, and they knew that by positioning themselves to become part of the success of it they could curry favour with the main man. Office politics, nothing unusual really. The merger played a part in the company coming apart, the lack of funds available later on, Bischoff becoming pissed off with how things were being handled by those above him, all sorts of factors played a part. Anyone who thinks it all begins and ends with Bischoff is being quite naive, and anyone who thinks that what Paul Heyman has accomplished in professional wrestling compares to what Bischoff has done is fucking mental. Heyman ran a small-time promotion into the ground in just over two years. Bischoff stood toe-to-toe with the company that for most people is wrestling. No one had done that before, and no one likely ever will. And that includes the new company with the billionaire NFL owner behind it. Hand "unlimited funds" to Cody or whoever is running that show and let's see if they can do what WCW did under Bischoff. They won't be able to come close, because it took more than just offering big money to wrestling talent. It took Bischoff's contacts in the movie and TV industry to land Hogan, along with his ability to sell the fuck out of a product. He brought a lot to the table back then, and while the world has changed and the way he does things isn't really applicable now, it doesn't take away from what he managed to do back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Factotum Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Quote Stop being rational and allow this discussion on some of the most complex characters in wrestling history to be reduced to one liners about Turner's money and bouncy cheques. Heyman smells, Vince is a big old Perv and Bischoff has had too much work done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalversicolor Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, BomberPat said: Aside from the huge guaranteed money contract given to Marc Mero, McMahon offered the Ultimate Warrior a 5 year contract, $750,000 downside, with a better merchandise percentage than everyone else in the company, in December 1997. Barely more than a month after Survivor Series '97. The money was there for the people Vince felt warranted it. It's mad to think what the WWF would have looked like in 1998 onwards if Warrior was there, same goes for the rumours about Macho Man heading back in 1997 or so (that could have been a load of made up bollocks I read though). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) I think there's an element of downplaying Paul Heyman's influence if you look at it purely in contrast to Bischoff's too, though. There's the old Brian Eno quote about the Velvet Underground, that they didn't sell too many records, but everyone who bought one formed a band. Heyman's a little like that with ECW. That he achieved the level of influence he had, to the point that promotions and wrestlers are still dining out on ECW nostalgia twenty years later, and arguably played a part in shaping the creative direction of American wrestling as a whole in the late '90s, despite not having the money, the TV deals, the coverage, the history, and so on that WCW and the WWF had, is something that can't be measured in the same metrics as finances and TV ratings. Edited October 16, 2019 by BomberPat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, David said: The merger played a part in the company coming apart, the lack of funds available later on, Bischoff becoming pissed off with how things were being handled by those above him, all sorts of factors played a part. Afternoon, Eric. How are things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Just now, tiger_rick said: Afternoon, Eric. How are things? Just dandy, Tyson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, digitalversicolor said: It's mad to think what the WWF would have looked like in 1998 onwards if Warrior was there, same goes for the rumours about Macho Man heading back in 1997 or so (that could have been a load of made up bollocks I read though). Absolutely! Warrior coming back in 1998 would be mad enough, figuring out where he'd fit at the height of the Attitude Era (or if we'd even get an Attitude era if Vince was prepared to have another at stab at Warrior on top), but if he'd somehow managed to last out his five year contract he'd still be knocking about in 2003 - still around as Lesnar, Batista, Orton and Cena were coming in. Mixing it up with Goldberg and Rey Mysterio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 1 minute ago, David said: I think you're maybe making the mistake No, I don't think I am. The initial quip that you're really sinking your teeth into here is that he had one incredible run. I acknowledge that. I agree with the rest of your body of work where you go about explaining to me what a run it was. It was still one run, one long ass time ago, and I was framing it as such. As for him being a bigger creative influence on the industry than Heyman, that may be so, but Heyman's the more tenured, trusted sounding board at this rate when you want someone to sit alongside Vince to throw some opinions about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 Warrior could have cut his hair like he did later in his life, don the camo gear that he would wear when putting skinny marks through his "fitness camps" on YouTube and did an early version of Jack Swagger's "we, the people" gimmick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted October 16, 2019 Moderators Share Posted October 16, 2019 17 minutes ago, digitalversicolor said: What change were considered? I know they were up shit creek for a bit there in the mid 90's, not sure I've heard about this though. I think they were on about going North East US only for shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019  2 minutes ago, Gay as FOOK said: As for him being a bigger creative influence on the industry than Heyman, that may be so, but Heyman's the more tenured, trusted sounding board at this rate when you want someone to sit alongside Vince to throw some opinions about. Heyman is there because Lesnar likes having him around, it has fuck all to do with him being a "trusted" anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted October 16, 2019 Paid Members Share Posted October 16, 2019 Just now, David said: Heyman is there because Lesnar likes having him around, it has fuck all to do with him being a "trusted" anything. He's running Raw on his own for them. There's clearly a huge level of trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gaffer Posted October 16, 2019 Share Posted October 16, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, David said:  Heyman is there because Lesnar likes having him around, it has fuck all to do with him being a "trusted" anything. I don't think your finger's on the pulse quite as well as you think it is. Either that or you had to sit next to Paulie for a long bus journey, once. Edited October 16, 2019 by Gay as FOOK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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