UFC 214: Cormier vs Jones 2

[Egg Shen]

8 hours ago, TildeGuy~! said:

Didn't Maia do the exact same in his title fight against Anderson Silva, just put all of his hope in getting a takedown for 5 rounds? 

Besides does defending takedowns for 5 rounds win you a fight a fight nowadays? Woodley didn't exactly do much to win rounds, I'd say Maia was the aggressor considering Woodley was defending all fight.

But yea shit fight and the welterweight division needs Lawler back on top.

i genuienly gave up scoring it as it went on. It's an interesting one because Maia was the guy at least trying to make something happen, if Woodley had been more active standing there would be no discussion but he barely threw a punch. Actually, fuck it, there is no discussion, i dont want Demian Maia anywhere near 5 round title fights going forward.

 

[David]

9 hours ago, Keith Houchen said:

Maybe WWE is the place where we finally get Cyborg vs Rousey!

They'd need to alter their PG rating if they were gonna show Cyborg smashing Rousey to bits.

[wandshogun09]

Rogan on his podcast addressing regretting doing the Cormier interview; 

 

[ColinBollocks]

Show breakdown.

[David]

Again, when it comes to Woodley vs Maia, I have to ask who has ever looked fantastic in beating Maia? Rory MacDonald? Who else?

No one.

It's in situations like this where I honestly believe the boxing audience, which we crap on frequently, is indeed far more educated when it comes to combat sports. We have Mayweather over there who is deemed one of the greatest defensive fighters of all time, a master of the "hit and don't get hit" philosophy that is supposed to be the intention of combat sports. He's lauded for that fact, and the way he fights is considered box office material.

Not in MMA though, it seems.

It's perhaps no coincidence that the people I hear online and even among my own friends who consider themselves UFC fans are the same people who call Mayweather a "runner", and who say he's "scared to fight proper" and other such nonsense.

These are the same mouth breathers who consider Leonard Garcia must-see TV, and who boo whenever a fight goes to the ground, or if the standup goes maybe 30 seconds without some bugger "swinging for the fences".

I include Dana White among that crowd of mouth breathers. His recent actions regarding his own champions actually makes me wonder if he hasn't been smacked upside his big red dome a few times too many.

People need to realise that these guys are in this game to make as much money as they can, in the safest way possible. 

Woodley made $139,000 base for his fight that put him in line to fight Lawler for the strap, and he made $500,000 for his fight with Maia.

Does anyone believe that if he'd played a bit more fast & loose in that fight at the weekend and lost to a submission that he'd be making half a million dollars in his next fight? Come on.

Any person with a fucking braincell in their heads has the intention of making as much coin as they can, as safely as they can, and getting out of the game with their health intact. That's exactly what Woodley did at the weekend. He did what had to be done to win against a guy that virtually no one looks good against.

Check his record. Fight of the night against Stephen Thompson, performance of the night against Robbie Lawler, performance of the night against Kim. 11 UFC fights, 8 wins, 5 KO's or TKO's.

This isn't a boring fighter we're talking about here, and it's plain lazy to label him as such just because his gameplan to beat one of the more awkward dudes in the game didn't appease the drunken peasants or the red-faced cunt who makes the calls.

Taking away the GSP fight? I agree with Ariel, that fight was never going to him anyway. GSP was always going to be part of the magical Bisping retirement tour, because I think most people in the know would favour Woodley to handle GSP today without too many issues.

I really hope the dude keeps winning, and we keep having to see Dana wrap that strap around him after every fight. 

[Keith Houchen]

Some good points there, David.  Enjoyed reading that post.

 

I'm going to throw a third sport into the mix, Cricket.  Boxing is a test match, it's longer and it's more defensive.  You have time to switch your strategy and plan accordingly.  MMA is Twenty20, limited time to get your shit done so you have to come out swinging for the boundaries.  I wonder if some boxing fans are delighted with the rise of MMA because the mouth breathing fraternity have moved on from their sport, they moaned about defensive fighting in Boxing and lack of knockouts but now they favour the explosive nature of MMA where KOs and stoppages are more frequent.

Unfortunately for those of us who appreciate both sports, we're stuck with them.

[David]

8 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

Some good points there, David.  Enjoyed reading that post.

 

I'm going to throw a third sport into the mix, Cricket.  Boxing is a test match, it's longer and it's more defensive.  You have time to switch your strategy and plan accordingly.  MMA is Twenty20, limited time to get your shit done so you have to come out swinging for the boundaries.  I wonder if some boxing fans are delighted with the rise of MMA because the mouth breathing fraternity have moved on from their sport, they moaned about defensive fighting in Boxing and lack of knockouts but now they favour the explosive nature of MMA where KOs and stoppages are more frequent.

Unfortunately for those of us who appreciate both sports, we're stuck with them.

The thing for me Keith, is that I think there's room for all different types of fighters in the sport of MMA. 

An event full of Tyron Woodley's would become boring, just as much as every single fight being an absolute slugfest would eventually numb you to the excitement of seeing a fight like that.

The key, in my opinion, is variation. I felt the event at the weekend had it all really. Even just the main card. We saw an incredible quick knock out in the opening fight, a masterclass of technical brawling from Lawler and Cerrone, a measured, violent performance from Cyborg, an unbelievable level of takedown defence and the solving of a human rubiks cube by Woodley, and the return of possibly the greatest MMA fighter of all time.

There's a place for every type of fighter in this sport (and it's easy to forget that it is a sport at its most base level), and the different fighters who all bring different styles, strengths, personalities and intangibles is what makes it what it is.

Not everyone should dress and carry themselves like McG, not everyone can sell a million PPV's, not everyone has a chin made of granite and hands of stone, not everyone is a grappling wizard, not everyone is as explosive and talented as Woodley, not everyone is as awesome as Jon Fitch, and not everyone is as dumb as Leonard Garcia.

The problem we have is Dana White deciding what is acceptable and what isn't. He comes from a boxing background, and measures himself and others on how much you can swear and how big and tough you can look and act. That's why he's went from a 160lbs solicitor-looking motherfucker in a cheap suit with bad teeth and even worse hair to a gassed-up, red-faced Tony Soprano-esque wanker in a tight suit who likes to bully reporters and people further down the ladder than himself.

In his world, if you're willing to go into a cage and repeatedly get punched in the head and get the masses into a frenzy, thus helping him and his suit-wearing wealthy friends make shitloads of money, then you're worthy of his praise and he'll maybe even throw you the scraps from his table in the form of $50,000 to make up for your brain damage.

If you're not willing to do that though? If you're not willing to play the game he wants you to play? Then, you're gonna get shat on by the guy who's supposed to be your promoter.

[ColinBollocks]

In fairness, I don't think it's too different - or certainly it's no black and white case. I've read and heard a lot of MMA journalists praise Woodley's takedown defence.

It's not like after a lot Mayweather fights people aren't a bit annoyed at his lack of pushing forward and, well, "action". The Pacman fight got all manner of shite thrown at it - and for good reason, £100 and it was a bit dull, in terms of "action".

By an MMA comparison, GSP is one of the biggest draws of all time and he seemed to always get called "boring" after the fact. Yet he still drew fans.

I said after the fight, Woodley did enough to win, so fair enough, but it was a dull fight. I don't hate on Woodley for it, but I can understand why some people were annoyed watching it.

Dana is mental, though. No disputing that.

[wandshogun09]

That last post is spot on for me, Dave. Except for the Jon Fitch fetish, I'm not with that. 

The variety in MMA is what I love most about it. I thought the Woodley vs Maia fight was awful to watch but fights just go like that sometimes. Some of my favourite fighters of all time have had some terrible fights. It just happens sometimes when two guys have a gameplan and they clash. 

As a performance, I think Woodley was exceptional. I'd like to have seen him do a bit more but at the same time, it's easy for me to say because I'm not the one locked in a fucking cage with Demian Maia. And in fairness to Woodley, he knocked out Robbie Lawler in about a minute and stole the show with Wonderboy on probably the most stacked card in UFC history at UFC 205. He's had two boring fights this year but it's not like it's typical of him. He's not Jake Shields. 

I just listened to him on the MMA Hour from yesterday and, while I find his personality and moaning really grates, he raised some good points. He had the shoulder injury and a point nobody is raising, both Woodley and Maia took this fight on short notice. If you remember it was added to the card very late in the day and they can't have had more than 3 or 4 weeks of training coming in. Not ideal. 

For Dana to throw his toys out of the pram the way he did isn't unexpected but it's no less silly. If you're asking guys to come in on a few weeks notice, with half a camp, it's a bit unreasonable to then publicly throw them under the bus when the fight turns out crap. Granted, the notice isn't the only reason the fight went as it did, but it can't have helped either. 

Woodley was also spot on about people criticising Maia when he said something along the lines or 'What else could Maia have done? He was never going to be a better wrestler, or faster than me, or hit harder than me. He had to get me to the ground to win. Do people think he should've abandoned his only way to win and stand in front of me? No. He'd have been an idiot for doing that.' Some fights just don't play out how you want. 

I'm interested to know what Woodley is threatening to leak though. Guess we'll know soon enough because that public apology from Dana isn't coming anytime soon. 

[Egg Shen]

2 hours ago, David said:

Again, when it comes to Woodley vs Maia, I have to ask who has ever looked fantastic in beating Maia? Rory MacDonald? Who else?

No one.

 

Nate Marquadt looked pretty fantastic...

[Egg Shen]

It doesn't matter how much you wanna label the fight as a masterclass in defensive wrestling or how tactically sound Woodley was, from an audience standpoint it was the shits, and you can't blame a live audience for booing. If anyone is trying to say they enjoyed what they saw on Saturday night they are either part of a very small minority, or they are lying. 

The 'this is a sport' line is getting thrown out there again but at the end of the day MMA didn't get to where it is and isn't popular because people enjoy seeing terrible takedown attempts getting defended for 25 minutes.

[Keith Houchen]

14 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

The 'this is a sport' line is getting thrown out there again but at the end of the day MMA didn't get to where it is and isn't popular because people enjoy seeing terrible takedown attempts getting defended for 25 minutes.

And that's why it attracts mouth breathers and will not have the air of authenticity of LEGIT SPORTS.  Small price to pay though.  Regarding the fight, I'm in that very small minority.

[wandshogun09]

I don't have a problem really with the crowd booing. If you've paid for tickets, hotels, travel etc and you think a fight is shit (and it was) you can boo whatever you want. The fight was shit. And it didn't help that the rest of the card was so good because it made Woodley vs Maia stand out all the more, like a big turd in the middle of a lovely plate of steak and chips. They were always going to crap all over that fight. 

What I find annoying is Dana being such a cock about it. He's supposed to be a promoter. He can hate the fight all he wants but surely the smart move would be to save that for behind the curtain and take it up with Woodley there. Instead he publicly trashes his fighter, his champion. And in a few month's time he's got to promote Woodley's next title defence. It baffles me. It's fair enough if he says he didn't like the fight and a bit of that honesty is good. But he goes overboard with it to the point he's actually doing the opposite of promoting. And it's not like this is an isolated incident. Just over the last few months he's thrown Amanda Nunes and Demetrious Johnson under the bus. He's publicly tried to paint Aldo as lying about being injured in the past. He went overboard in bashing Jones, Cyborg and Barao as well. Then there's the way he's gone on with Helwani. I used to have a lot of time for Dana but I can't be doing with him really these days. He seems to be getting worse with each pound he puts on. 

[David]

2 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

It doesn't matter how much you wanna label the fight as a masterclass in defensive wrestling or how tactically sound Woodley was, from an audience standpoint it was the shits, and you can't blame a live audience for booing. If anyone is trying to say they enjoyed what they saw on Saturday night they are either part of a very small minority, or they are lying. 

The 'this is a sport' line is getting thrown out there again but at the end of the day MMA didn't get to where it is and isn't popular because people enjoy seeing terrible takedown attempts getting defended for 25 minutes.

I'm not saying the fight was riveting stuff, Ebb, I'm saying that MMA delivers all manner of results and fights depending on styles. Personally, I found it an interesting, if not edge of the seat exciting fight to watch.

Was Maia going to get Woodley to the floor? And if he did, could he keep him there? What's Woodley's ground game like? Is it good enough to get him out of danger and back to his feet? 

What would Maia do if he couldn't get Woodley to the ground? Did he have an answer to Woodley's superior standup, speed and power? Would Woodley eventually catch him and put him on his arse? If he did, would he jump in and risk being caught on the ground in order to try and get the finish?

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, who came into this event expecting this fight to be anything other than what it was either knows fuck all about the fighters involved, or doesn't understand how dangerous these two guys are in their respective disciplines.

And those "terrible takedown attempts" that you speak of were good enough to take down and submit some of the best names in two separate divisions. Again, you maybe need to clue yourself up on the difference between a flashy, power takedown that you'll see from a wrestler who's looking to take top position, and the takedowns used by a BJJ fighter who's looking to hit the floor in an entirely different way and who is already thinking two or three moves ahead. It's apples and oranges, and Maia's takedown technique against the cage is very fucking effective. It worked on Carlos Condit, it worked on Matt Brown, it worked on Neil Magny, it worked on Rick Story.

Go ask Gunnar Nelson about Demian Maia's "terrible takedowns" and see what he has to say about them after their fight? 

As I said previously, not all fights can be brain scrambling, swinging for the fences, back and forth encounters. And that's a good thing, because if they were then those memorable fights wouldn't be so memorable, would they?

Every now and then, especially when you get a champion facing a legit number one contender, you're gonna get a chess match. 

That may not be to the liking of the pissheads in the crowd sporting their XXS Affliction t-shirts or ol' bawheid at cageside, but that's how it is.

When it happens you accept it for what it was, recognise the skill and ability that goes into winning such fights and you move on. The next Woodley fight could very well be Robbie Lawler-esque or Woodley/Thompson-esque.

What you don't do is act like you've just walked into the press conference from the cheap seats after a few beers and rip into a professional athlete who's at the top of the game as though he's some sort of fucking schmuck.

You say that the styles of both fighters didn't mesh to create an all-time classic, but you quickly remind everyone that Woodley is the same guy who flattened Robbie Lawler, and who stopped Wonderboy in his tracks, and that he'll be back to doing that in no time, before you then remind people how fucking dangerous Demian Maia is, and also tell us all that he'll be back as well, cranking fools necks until blood pishes from their nostrils and sending dudes to sleep.

It's promotion 101, and it's not fucking rocket science.

[jimufctna24]

1 hour ago, David said:

 

The problem we have is Dana White deciding what is acceptable and what isn't. He comes from a boxing background, and measures himself and others on how much you can swear and how big and tough you can look and act. That's why he's went from a 160lbs solicitor-looking motherfucker in a cheap suit with bad teeth and even worse hair to a gassed-up, red-faced Tony Soprano-esque wanker in a tight suit who likes to bully reporters and people further down the ladder than himself.

Maia vs Woodley did nothing for me, but I understand why the fight went the way it did. Like Anderson Silva, it seems that Woodley needs the right opponent to produce an entertaining fight. There's not much shame in that. Not everyone is going to be Cowboy Cerrone. In fact, very few are. 

When I first got into MMA, Dana was considered by most fans to be a bit of a joke; especially on message boards. However, as the MMA fanbase grew, so did his reputation. As other promoters crumbled, he was seen as competent in comparison. It was low-hanging fruit in many ways. Was it really that hard to look good compared to Gary Shaw? Dana also embraced fan interaction through Twitter and interviews with Helwani; he was very much the "people's promoter". 

He's always been a bit of a prick though. Helwani's account of his dealings with Dana last year confirmed that beyond doubt. It wasn't so much what he did to Helwani, it was how he did it. As Wand noted above, his public disputes with fighters have become tiresome and counter-productive. He overstayed his welcome a long time ago in my eyes. Sadly, I don't think he'll be gone anytime soon