UFC 170: Rousey vs McMann

[wandshogun09]

You're right lamby, it's not a real comparison in that sense. But Askren is right in the overall point of what he's saying. He's not even saying they shouldn't have hired Cummins, he's just pointing out that Dana's public reasoning for not signing him was a big pile of sweaty bollocks. I don't blame Askren for having pops whenever he can.

 

They needed Cummins for this card for sure. No-one would dispute that. But when you're using the excuse that a guy hasn't fought anyone as a reason not to sign him - then you sign Cummins who's 4-0 against scrubs, you sign Royston Wee who was 2-0 against scrubs, you sign a Russian female fighter who is 1-0, it's a stupid reason to give. Especially now. Now more than ever records seem less important to get signed by Zuffa. They're hiring loads of guys with less than 5 fights for their international cards. And the vast majority won't have fought against as good opposition as Askren did.

 

So yeah, you can't argue with his main point, that Dana was full of shit with his reasoning. Of course the circumstances of Cummins signing are unique, but it still doesn't mean Askren shouldn't have a dig. It must be infuriating when he can't even get a prelim spot and sees guys coming in with lesser records and skills getting big fights like this, regardless of the circumstances. Even more so when you know the public reason being spun to the media isn't the truth.

 

I think that's Askren's main problem with this. The shit Dana said about him not fighting anyone as the reason he wasn't signed. I don't think he'd give a shit if they signed Cummins really, as long as the guys who earned the opportunity got it as well.

 

Sorry, I've taken this thread way off topic.

[lambyUK]

You're right lamby, it's not a real comparison in that sense. But Askren is right in the overall point of what he's saying. He's not even saying they shouldn't have hired Cummins, he's just pointing out that Dana's public reasoning for not signing him was a big pile of sweaty bollocks. I don't blame Askren for having pops whenever he can.

 

They needed Cummins for this card for sure. No-one would dispute that. But when you're using the excuse that a guy hasn't fought anyone as a reason not to sign him - then you sign Cummins who's 4-0 against scrubs, you sign Royston Wee who was 2-0 against scrubs, you sign a Russian female fighter who is 1-0, it's a stupid reason to give. Especially now. Now more than ever records seem less important to get signed by Zuffa. They're hiring loads of guys with less than 5 fights for their international cards. And the vast majority won't have fought against as good opposition as Askren did.

 

So yeah, you can't argue with his main point, that Dana was full of shit with his reasoning. Of course the circumstances of Cummins signing are unique, but it still doesn't mean Askren shouldn't have a dig. It must be infuriating when he can't even get a prelim spot and sees guys coming in with lesser records and skills getting big fights like this, regardless of the circumstances. Even more so when you know the public reason being spun to the media isn't the truth.

 

I think that's Askren's main problem with this. The shit Dana said about him not fighting anyone as the reason he wasn't signed. I don't think he'd give a shit if they signed Cummins really, as long as the guys who earned the opportunity got it as well.

 

Sorry, I've taken this thread way off topic.

 

The way I'm coming across you would think I support Dana White in this, but let's look at Askren's quote again-

 

"So I haven't fought anyone, but a guy who is 4-0 and opponents' combined record is 9-19 gets an immediate co-main fight. Let's hear the real reason. Didn't [want] a former Bellator MMA fighter to come and prove he is the best in the world! "

 

You say Askren is right in his overall point here, but what point is that? He's certainly not right in his statement with Cummins. I've already said that's complete shit. So is he right that Dana doesn't want a former Bellator champ to prove he's the best? I don't see that either. We've already covered this but if that was the case he wouldn't have signed Hector Lombard. The fact is, no one knows the real truth apart from Dana White and Lorenzo.

[wandshogun09]

The Lombard thing was different though. The UFC and Bellator weren't in a beef at that time, in fact Dana used to be quite complimentary of them back then. They made Lombard a great offer and Bjorn said he couldn't match it, so he simply let Lombard go. The UFC/Bellator beef didn't start until the Alvarez stuff started. And by then Bellator were in bed with Spike, who had parted badly with the UFC so there were axes to grind there as well. That's when Bjorn started having digs at the UFC and all that and Dana obviously started knocking them as well. Had Lombard tried to go to the UFC now, it'd probably have been a much messier situation.

 

With Askren I think it's a few things. I think it's a combination of Dana thinking Askren is boring, and the way Bjorn was basically challenging Dana by saying 'I'll let you have my champion and he's going to dominate your guys.' That type of talk shouldn't bother a multi-millionaire promoter like Dana, but you know it does. His ego couldn't take that if Askren actually backed it up and did come in and just school say, Condit, Ellenberger, Lawler and Hendricks and won the title. Then not only has he got a 'boring' champion, Bjorn can say 'I told you so.' Of course there's no guarantee Askren could have that kind of success, but I suppose Dana would think why risk it? Especially when he's not even exciting to watch.

 

It's clearly not solely the Bellator thing because they've signed Zach Makovsky since all this stuff went down. And I'm sure they'd have Alvarez if he wins his next fight and comes to them. But a combo of the boring thing, the Bjorn thing and Askren's take no shit personality is at the root of it, I think. Askren is outspoken and revels in pissing people off. I could see a bit of a Dana vs Roy Nelson type awkward relationship there if Askren ever does sign.

 

As for Askren's point in the quote, I think it's as simple as him just seeing this as another opportunity to point out Dana's bullshit excuse. He's just used this Cummins thing as a convenient excuse to have a pop. He's still got a valid gripe. I mean, say Tyron Woodley pulled out of the Condit fight a week before UFC 171 (God forbid), and Askren was a free agent and started tweeting everyone to put him in against Condit, and that he wants the fight etc. Would Dana sign him? I doubt it somehow. Dana's got his reasons, whatever they are, for not wanting Askren in the UFC, and there's not much Askren can do about it. Dana says he hasn't fought anyone, but all the best welterweights are in the UFC. Who can he beat outside Zuffa that would impress Dana? Fitch, Palhares? Something tells me even if Askren breezed through those guys Dana would still be saying 'yeah he's beating guys we didn't want anymore, big deal.' I've got a feeling Askren will retire at 60-0 or something silly, without ever getting the chance to show what he's got at the top level.

 

I'm not even a fan of Askren but it's such bullshit. I know you're not disagreeing with that bit, I've gone way off track. But I don't think there's anything more to his comments really, other than to have a dig at Dana. He'll know why they signed Cummins, but it's a chance for him to shine light on his situation again. I don't blame him to be honest.

[wandshogun09]

Cormier on Cummins making him cry

 

"This was around 2004, I lost my daughter in 2003, so I was having a whole bunch of personal issues. I called my head coach at the time and told him the story, he said 'That's not what happened, what is he talking about? He's lying.' We were simulating the Olympic games just as he said, and he beat me. He did beat me in a match, and I said, 'We're going again.' And the coach said 'No, the Olympics are over for you. You lost.' And that's what freaked me out and I ran out of the room. Yeah, I did cry, I was pissed off... We did compete against each other in reality one time. I was at 211 pounds and he wrestled as a heavyweight, he was the number three heavyweight in the country and I beat him 7-0. When we did strap our boots on and really wrestled each other, I beat him pretty good. We don't talk about training. That's wrestler code 101. He knew the things that I was going through at that time. He went and dug up some things that he should have never have dug up. The Pat I remember wasn't like that. That's just life, people change."

 

Bit of a prick move by Cummins bringing this up IMO, if he knew the shit Cormier was going through at the time.

[lambyUK]

I think you're taking this a little too seriously Wand. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they are both in on it?

 

Be honest, if Cummins hadn't have said what he did, not a single person would care about this fight.

 

Both Cormier and Cummins know this and I wouldn't be surprised if Dana White encouraged this.

 

You're right though that its a dickish thing to say, but without none of this no one would care unfortunately.

[wandshogun09]

I doubt Cormier would be in on using his dead daughter to sell a fight though. That's the dickheaded part of this. Sure the fight wasn't exactly an easy sell but Cummins could've easily just gone the "I used to school Cormier in the gym" route without bringing up the crying bit, which he must've known was about his daughter, and not just because he had a shitty day at wrestling practice.

 

These late replacement fights usually have a strange intrigue of their own anyway. Fuck, even before Mousasi vs Fucker there was somewhat of a mild Rocky story buzz. This would've been stronger than that without the crying stuff, just on the basis of their history together, Cummins saying he's got the better of him in the gym, playing on Cummins getting sacked from the coffee shop when Dana phoned him etc. It didn't need much more said.

 

I've got no problem with trash talk at all and guys trying to raise interest. We've all said how important that side of MMA is. But if he genuinely knew what Cormier was dealing with in that period, then using the crying thing to grab headlines is a low blow.

[wandshogun09]

Don Frye doesn't predict UFC 170

http://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&a...p;v=LR2YGyOlKYM

[METAL ON METAL]

I guess that explains David's love of Frye.

[wandshogun09]

I mentioned before that I'd been watching some of Sara McMann's fights to get more of an idea about her before this show. I've watched 5 of her 7 fights. The Tonya Evinger and Hitomi Akano fights are the only ones I couldn't find.

 

Anyway, few thoughts;

 

McMann's MMA Debut

Sara McMann vs Christina Marks - 28/05/11 - Universal Cage Combat

Exactly the type of fight you'd expect for an Olympic medalist making her MMA debut. Nothing risky. Marks was 2-2 coming into this. She's 4-7 now so yeah, not a massive risk. McMann just has her way here. Comes out with a HUGE takedown right away, into side control, then mount. She lands a nasty elbow and some punches, Marks gives up her back and McMann sinks in a rear naked choke for the tap in less than two minutes. Piece of piss.

 

MMA Fight #2

Sara McMann vs Julie Malenfant - 17/06/11 - BlackEye Promotions

Malenfant was 0-1 here, and she was in her late 30s at the time of the fight. So again, not a real threat. She is a former Olympic weight lifter though, and this was billed as a 'Battle of the Olympians'. Malenfant also bears a striking resemblance, in my opinion, to Georges St Pierre.

 

 

That is GSP's face isn't it?

 

Anyway, McMann comes out aggressive. Throws some sloppy punches to set up the takedown. She gets it. Half guard. Mount. Lots of fast punches from mount and Malenfant rolls over and taps to the strikes. 32 seconds. Easy money.

 

Next up was Tonya Evinger. Shame there isn't a good, full version of this on YouTube because it's the first real test of McMann's career. Evinger is experienced and they'd had history from wrestling apparently, where McMann usually came out on top. All I know is McMann won by unanimous decision.

 

MMA Fight #4

Sara McMann vs Raquel Pa'aluhi - 27/08/11 - ProElite

Pa'aluhi came in with a 2-1 record. She's 3-4 now but her last three losses were to Raquel Pennington, Amanda Nunes and McMann here. All are coming off wins in the UFC now so no shame there. She fought all three consecutively as well.

 

This is really exciting. McMann lands some good punches and a big knee right away but quickly reverts to her wrestling. The one slam in the first round was particularly awesome. Sort of a belly to belly suplex but from the side. McMann lands a few different takedowns here - slams, trips, double legs. She threw some pretty brutal knees to the body from the clinch as well at one point. She almost stops Pa'aluhi in round two with punches from the mount but she survives. Then in round three McMann mauls her to the mat again and finally finishes the job with an Americana from side control.

 

Pa'aluhi asked a few questions of McMann here though. At one point, in an incredible exchange, McMann gets the full mount and somehow Pa'aluhi reverses it and winds up on top in McMann's guard. McMann ends up just powering through and reversing again to regain top position but I was quite surprised Pa'aluhi was able to handle McMann's initial mount like that. You'd think McMann's base would be too strong.

 

Also, later in the fight McMann is on top raining down punches. She gets careless and gets caught in a triangle. She's composed and stays out of real danger but still, against a better grappler that could've been the fight over. She was only saved really by Pa'aluhi not being able to get her foot under her knee to tighten the choke.

 

So a few weaknesses were exposed in this fight. Still it was very early in McMann's transition to MMA. It's a really fun fight though regardless.

 

She fought Hitomi Akano next. An experienced fighter with a 18-8 record at the time. She'd fought Cyborg, Miesha Tate, Tara LaRosa, Carina Damm and Roxanne Modaferri so she'd been in with some of the best. Couldn't find this but McMann won by unanimous decision.

 

MMA Fight #6

Sara McMann vs Shayna Baszler - 28/07/12 - Invicta

Baszler is another experienced fighter. She's been considered one of the best women fighters in MMA for a while now. Background in catch wrestling and BJJ, decent standup, trains with Josh Barnett and Ronda Rousey. A hard test for McMann.

 

There was nearly a year between this and the Pa'aluhi fight so I noticed right away here, there were some improvements in McMann's striking. It's still not great but you could see from the first exchange that she'd worked a lot on her defence and throwing straight punches. Throws some decent leg kicks as well. She gets sloppier as the fight goes on though. It's clear that Baszler is the better striker but when McMann throws she throws bombs.

 

McMann doesn't initiate the wrestling much at all early in the fight. And when she does Baszler's guard is very active and she very nearly catches McMann in a kneebar and then a heel hook. The last round is pretty much all McMann but then in the last few seconds of the fight they trade punches and Baszler cracks McMann with a left and she appears pretty rocked but the fight ends.

 

McMann takes the unanimous decision. It was a mild controversial one really. And one judge giving it 30-27 to McMann was a bit off. It was a tough fight to score. I had Baszler taking the second, McMann taking the third despite being rocked late. The first is the decider and it could've gone either way. I could definitely see the argument for Baszler winning but it's not like it was a robbery. Pretty good fight.

 

MMA Fight #7

Sara McMann vs Sheila Gaff - 27/04/13 - UFC 159

I assume everyone saw this. Pretty straight forward. McMann took her down, stayed in guard with punches and got the TKO late in round 1.

 

That's it then.

 

After watching some of these fights I'm a little bit more confident that Ronda will win this. Despite McMann's obvious high level grappling credentials (wrestling, ADCCs etc) she does seem to get put in bad positions quite a bit on the ground. She's learning and improving and she's training at Tri-Star I think now which will only help her. But watching her fights - yeah she has been effective at escaping the submission attempts so far but it seems she relies more on brute strength to escape rather than technique. And I don't think she'll be as effective in powering out against Ronda.

 

Basically, like everyone expects, if this becomes a pure grappling match I think Ronda will catch her at some point. She's too slick to not take advantage of the openings McMann leaves IMO. If McMann can take her down and stay in half guard or side control though, Ronda's options for submissions are limited and McMann could fuck her up with elbows from there. If she messes up her takedown though she could wind up on bottom or in Ronda's guard and that's the big risk.

 

Like I've said before though, I've got a feeling McMann will look to keep this standing. Her striking isn't that good but I think it's slightly better than Ronda's and I've got a feeling she's more powerful. Her punches look more hurtful than Ronda's to me. There is a fairly strong possibility that Ronda won't be able to get McMann down and if she can't I could see McMann tagging her. Ronda's getting better but she's got a long way to go. If it becomes a striking match between two subpar strikers, I'll take the one with more power. And I think that's McMann in this fight.

 

So yeah - if McMann tries to grapple a lot I see a grueling struggle with Ronda eventually catching her. If McMann chooses to and can keep the fight standing, I've got a gut feeling she'll KO Ronda.

 

It's a fascinating one. In the end though, I think it'll inevitably wind up on the ground. They've both been grappling so long it's second nature and I'm not confident McMann can avoid danger there. I get the feeling this fight has just kind of came along about a year too early for McMann.

 

If you fancy watching any McMann before Saturday, I highly recommend the Raquel Pa'aluhi fight;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&a...p;v=CsVg1JF54eQ

 

I'll predict Rousey by armbar or triangle, round 2.

[Carbomb]

Thanks for that break-down, wand, it's a good read. From what you say, it's looking likelier that Ronda's going to claim another victim.

 

That said, I've got two questions:

 

1. How much improvement does McMann show with each fight? Do you think with the progress she's made each time that there's a chance she could become more dangerous than initially predicted?

 

2. You say she's training at Tri-Star. Does GSP train people personally now that he's retired? If he does, given his tactician's style in the latter half of his career, might it not be a possibility that he could be coaching her to really capitalise on Rousey's deficiencies?

[wandshogun09]

From what you say, it's looking likelier that Ronda's going to claim another victim.

 

Don't put any money on it though. I'm no expert it's just how I think it'll go. I've been wrong before. A lot.

 

1. How much improvement does McMann show with each fight? Do you think with the progress she's made each time that there's a chance she could become more dangerous than initially predicted?

 

She definitely seemed to improve between fights. You don't notice it in the early fights because they're all a few months apart. But watching the Pa'aluhi fight then watching the Baszler fight right after like I did, there was almost a year between those fights so it's more noticeable. People might look at those two fights and think she hasn't changed much but it's important to note the opposition as well. Baszler is a much tougher opponent than Pa'aluhi. Her striking looked a bit better and her submission defence must've improved. If she'd been as careless against Baszler as she was at times against Pa'aluhi I think Baszler would've caught her. She stayed calm to escape Baszler's leg lock attempts as well. Baszler trains with Josh Barnett so she'll be clued up on leg locks, she knows what to do and McMann still got out. So she's improving. It's hard to say how much fight to fight though without seeing the Evinger and Akano fights.

 

She breezed through Gaff in her UFC debut and it's been nearly a year again since. I don't think she was injured either. She took some time off for personal reasons if I remember right. But she's had a long time to just focus on training and getting better. Many fighters say they improve more when they train just to improve all around and not for a specific fight. Who knows? I imagine she'll be better than ever, but I just get a feeling she could've done with another few fights and more development time first before jumping in with Rousey. We'll see though.

 

 

2. You say she's training at Tri-Star. Does GSP train people personally now that he's retired? If he does, given his tactician's style in the latter half of his career, might it not be a possibility that he could be coaching her to really capitalise on Rousey's deficiencies?

 

I don't think she's solely at Tri-Star but I could be wrong. I think she goes to different places throughout her camp. She has spent a fair bit of time at Tri-Star over the last year or so though. I don't know what role, if any, GSP would play but she'd have Firas Zahabi there who's been GSP's guy throughout his career. They get top grapplers in all the time, great strikers. It's the kind of place that should bring out the best of McMann's skills I imagine.

 

I think McMann's plan will probably be to keep it standing as much as possible, and if it does go to the ground make sure it's either half guard or side control where Ronda can't do much.

 

Ronda's making some smart choices though herself. She's brought in an Olympic wrestler Martin Berberyan for this camp. She's constantly trying to improve her standup and has even trained with Gennady Golovkin who's one of the best boxers on the planet right now. She's got Shayna Baszler in camp who knows all about McMann.

 

It's a great fight. I'm picking Ronda but it's definitely the least sure I've been of her winning so far.

[jimufctna24]

Cheers Wand

 

I was going to ask someone to break down the Rousey fight, as I know fuck all about women's MMA outside Rousey, Gina and Tate

[DJM]

I'll predict Rousey by armbar or triangle, round 2.

What is the submission game of Rousey like outside of being able to armbar everyone she has fought so far?

[Egg Shen]

no one knows, the armbar is all she needs it seems.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, the armbars are obviously her bread and butter but there's no way someone who reaches Olympic medal level Judo would be just armbars. It's all she's needed up to now but I'd bet she's got good chokes as well. Armlocks and chokes are favourites in Judo. She went for a triangle and even an inverted triangle in the Tate fight in December. And she's trained extensively with Gene LeBell, Karo Parisyan, Manny Gamburyan, Nick and Nate Diaz and Shayna Baszler who all have varied styles of grappling.

 

I compare her to Cro Cop. Cro Cop's left high kick was such a lethal and effective weapon it became his go-to move. But he was still an excellent all-around striker. Rousey is the grappling equivalent, in my opinion. She'll show other skills when she needs to.

 

On the armbars thing, Shayna Baszler said this in a recent interview;