UFC 170: Rousey vs McMann

[Carbomb]

CONSPIRACY THEORY: Do you think it's possible that Herb Dean has been issued "guidelines" concerning the UFC upper cards, with the current dearth of star-power? I don't mean in terms of fixing, but is it possible that, realising they might have problems match-making in future, they've told their refs to be a bit less "lenient" when it comes to potential stoppages in title matches, with the resultant controversial decisions opening up the possibilities of re-matches and trilogies later?

 

I know it's a bit tinfoil hat, but I think it's a line of thinking that could be forgiven in the light of the track records of fight promoters in general, as they all seem to be cut from the same bolt of carny cloth.

[PowerButchi]

Nah. Herb Dean works for the athletic commissions, not UFC.

[textonly]

I'm not as fussed about the McMann stoppage as most people. I know everyone's saying it's a late stoppage, but I think maybe there's a call to say if Herb Dean had gone in a split second earlier, before the signs of recovery, then people would have been fine with it. It was essentially a flash knockout, and the way McMann's body completely gave up on her is an instant red flag for any referee. Obviously sometimes you see flash knockouts happen, the guys recover quickly and the fights continue, but technically isn't knocking someone out supposed to win you the fight? I feel like that's all that happened. Ronda knocked out McMann, even if only for a second, and so she won the fight. The moral of the story for me isn't "give the fighter a chance to recover", it's "don't get knocked out in a title fight".

 

I don't have much to say about DC. I was pretty annoyed, to be honest, about how the hypoed Cummins for ten days and then the second he got punched said, "but everyone he's fought is a nobody and he is too!". Good for DC, I guess, as an exercise in cutting weight and stretching his legs, but completely meaningless. True, he still probably represents Jones' biggest challenge, but I'd still rather see him forced to take a proper fight against a good opponent before getting a title shot. I actually think a DC vs. Gusty fight would be fair. The way the timing works out, though, maybe they'll just jump DC into a title shot once Jones dispatches Glover.

[Carbomb]

Nah. Herb Dean works for the athletic commissions, not UFC.

 

Fair fucks. Figured it was a question worth asking.

[jimufctna24]

Ha I'm not even joking, Jim. Punk always looks fucking ill to me. Get that bloke some Lemsip and Nurofen. Fuck being straight edge, he needs some meds quick. And some sleep and a good wash too, by the look of him.

deathrey is going to have your balls on a stick if she sees this. Lay of the poor sod.

 

Carbomb - there is some debate as to whether UFC fights have been fixed or distorted in recent times. Insider Frontrowbrian has said fights get fixed. But it is all speculation. As of right now, there is no firm evidence a UFC fight has been fixed since Dana White took over from SEG.

 

As Butch said, Dean is not employed by the UFC. Plus, Dean does not seem the type to fix things up (it was accused that he actually fought in a fixed fight in Cage Rage years ago, but that was all speculation as well). Dean probably aired on the side of caution, as like I said people are still not comfortable watching women take a beating as much as men, so they get less leeway.

[lambyUK]

Nah. Herb Dean works for the athletic commissions, not UFC.

 

Fair fucks. Figured it was a question worth asking.

 

Just playing devils advocate, but even if works for the athletic commission, doesn't stop him taking back handers from the UFC?

[Carbomb]

Carbomb - there is some debate as to whether UFC fights have been fixed or distorted in recent times. Insider Frontrowbrian has said fights get fixed. But it is all speculation. As of right now, there is no firm evidence a UFC fight has been fixed since Dana White took over from SEG.

 

As Butch said, Dean is not employed by the UFC. Plus, Dean does not seem the type to fix things up (it was accused that he actually fought in a fixed fight in Cage Rage years ago, but that was all speculation as well). Dean probably aired on the side of caution, as like I said people are still not comfortable watching women take a beating as much as men, so they get less leeway.

 

As aforementioned, I was thinking more of "shifting the goalposts" rather than outright fixing; basically being a bit more flexible within the boundaries of reasonable refereeing, if you like, so as to leave just enough doubt as to the outcome. Wouldn't ever accuse Dean of fixing the fight, as he does seem to be the best ref working UFC matches thus far.

[wandshogun09]

textonly - That's a fair point on the stoppage. There was a second there where McMann just went flat and wasn't defending. She was just holding her stomach. If Herb had jumped in right there maybe it wouldn't have looked so much like an early stoppage. But he waved it off right as McMann was recovering. It's a weird one. On one hand I think the ref should be more lenient with giving a fighter chance to recover from a body shot. If a fighter goes limp from a blow to the head it's over, no question. But body shots can stop someone in their tracks for a second then they recover. Or sometimes they take much longer to recover from. It just felt like McMann could've gone on to me.

 

I doubt they'll do Cormier vs Gustafsson. It'd be a good fight to determine the next contender but one has to lose so they then eliminate an interesting challenger either way. I think if Gustafsson beats Manuwa he'll still get the next title shot. Especially if Jones beats Glover. Jones vs Gustafsson 2 over the summer would be great. They could do Cormier vs the winner of Davis/Rumble, or Rashad, or Little Nog, or even the Shogun/Hendo 2 winner. I just don't see them doing DC vs Gus next. That's two great opponents for Jones if he remains champ. Why take one out of the running?

 

On Herb Dean, I just think he's having a bad spell. Nothing more. He got pretty heavily criticised for the Barao vs Faber stoppage and maybe it's made him question himself on when to step in in the heat of the moment now. Josh Rosenthal had a bad patch as well a couple of years ago, with the late stoppage for Weidman vs Munoz and I'm sure he had one or two others right around that time. Even the best refs have bad days at the office.

 

John McCarthy has always been the man as far as reffing goes for me though. That big bastard has been reffing since UFC 2. That's twenty years, and how many bad calls do you remember him making in those twenty years? Not many at all. In fact no real howlers are jumping out at me. He's been the most consistently good referee in MMA since almost day one.

[jimufctna24]

As aforementioned, I was thinking more of "shifting the goalposts" rather than outright fixing; basically being a bit more flexible within the boundaries of reasonable refereeing, if you like, so as to leave just enough doubt as to the outcome. Wouldn't ever accuse Dean of fixing the fight, as he does seem to be the best ref working UFC matches thus far.

I alluded to that when I said "distorted".

 

I doubt Dana or Zuffa would risk even suggesting referee's play around a bit with stopping fights. Dana is so obsessed at the moment with UFC being a sport he will not warrant Hughes vs Serra to fight, as he is son concerned about the UFC being seen as novelty. A year can make a great difference, as last year I think he would have made that in a heartbeat.

[wandshogun09]

I don't know Jim. Even in 2012 Dana was dead against doing Griffin vs Bonnar 3. Despite both fighters wanting it, fans seeming up for it etc. I agree with your general point though. Dana's a lot of things but I very much doubt he'd have any part of match fixing. It's just not worth it when they've come as far as they have, to risk a scandal like that just to have a certain result in any given fight.

[jimufctna24]

I don't know Jim. Even in 2012 Dana was dead against doing Griffin vs Bonnar 3.

Decent point, I forgot about that.

 

I dunno then, I am not sure why he did not make Serra vs Hughes 2. Maybe he only sees the worth in messing with his formula when big money is involved like he got with Diaz vs GSP, and thought he would get with Jones vs Chael. Maybe he sees the two fights declined not worth the reward.

[wandshogun09]

It's weird because he was up for Chuck vs Tito 3 in 2010. But not Griffin vs Bonnar 3 two years later. They were pretty much the same thing. Fuck knows. I guess Dana just never gets tired of watching Chuck batter Tito and wanted to see it again.

 

Serra vs Hughes 2 though, I don't know why he's so against it. It's not like Chuck vs Tito or Griffin vs Bonnar where one guy is 2-0. Serra vs Hughes 1 was a razor close, controversial decision. And there's a grudge. It makes more sense than Chuck vs Tito 3 ever did.

 

Back on topic

 

Ronda Rutten with the liver shot.

[JNLister]

I don't have any problem with the stoppage. Sure, McMann recovered, but there've been cases where people have been KOed and recovered quickly (for example where you are KOed by a head shot, then woken up by hitting the floor). There were at least a couple of seconds where she had no control whatsoever over her body, which is good enough for a stoppage for me.

 

Most amazing thing was Mike Pyle's hair. I've never before seen a buzzcut, a mohawk and mullet on the same head, let alone on a ginger.

[bono]

I don't have any problem with the stoppage. Sure, McMann recovered, but there've been cases where people have been KOed and recovered quickly (for example where you are KOed by a head shot, then woken up by hitting the floor). There were at least a couple of seconds where she had no control whatsoever over her body, which is good enough for a stoppage for me.

 

I totally agree with you. Ive watched it over and over and in my opinion as soon as Ronda connects with the knee mcmann drops to her knees holding her stomach. Its a devastating blow and when she drops she looks in really bad pain. Ronda connects with a fair few punches,the whole time Mcmann is just holding her stomach riving in pain. She isnt protecting herself looking in a really bad way. If she had of dropped and covered her head then fair enough but she didnt she was open to anything looking in agony. I honestly thought it was a fair stoppage.

[bono]

Some article from mma underground

 

The liver is the largest gland organ and a center of blood circulation, and when it is hit properly, the result is pain and paralysis. The paralysis is both physical and mental -the body cannot move properly, ad the mind shuts down to some extent, sometimes to the point of unconsciousness.

Saturday night at UFC 170, UFC women's bantamweight champion Ronda Rousey landed a knee to the liver of challenger Sara McMann, who dropped to the ground, and could not move her hands even to protect herself. Referee Herb Dean stepped in and stopped the fight immediately, as he is instructed to do by the Unified Rules. If a fighter cannot intelligently defend herself or himself, and there is an element of danger, then the ref has to stop the fight.

The crowd booed loudly, and many did the digital equivalent online, but no one of them had even been dropped with a liver shot. If they had, they would have understood.

At the post fight press conference, UFC president Dana White, Ronda Rousey, and Sara McMann were all asked about the stoppage.

“I didn’t think it was too soon,” said Rousey as transcribed by MMAJunkie. “I’d have kept going if someone didn’t stop me. But it’s not my decision. That’s why they have a referee in there to make sure no one gets hurt more than they need to.

“I promised my coach this time that I was going to drop her with a body shot. We called it. We trained it a lot. That was a goal I had in this fight. I don’t like calling it and saying it to the media. But to my coach, I promised him I was really going to try. I’m happy I did that.”

When interviewed in the Octagon by Joe Rogan immediately after the fight, McMann voiced no protest what so ever. After viewing a replay, she expressed some doubt.

“Looking back, it did seem kind of quick on the screen,” said McMann. “Things are kind of slowed down in my head in the cage. I felt it connect, and my body just flew to protect itself. I heard his voice, and I immediately tried to get back up.

“I’m not going to blame a referee for something I feel like I should be able to control. I should get up quicker. If you want to win fights, you just have to do it, regardless of what’s going on.”

White, who is not shy about expressing his feelings about officials, once saying of referee Steve Mazzagatti "This f---ing guy shouldn't even be watching MMA on TV, let alone refereeing it. I think he's the worst ref in the history of any fight business, ever."

?And White watched the replay, which quelled any doubts he might have harbored.

“I’ve been in this business a long time," said White. "I’ve seen that happen to Oscar de la Hoya and many other great fighters.You get hit to the body like that, and regular people who have never been hit to the body have no f---ing clue what that feels like.

"Believe me when I tell you that. She went down on her knees and she turned her head the other way. Could Herb have let her take some shots to the face? When the fight happened when I saw it, I said ‘oh man.' then I watched the replay and I thought it was a good stoppage."