UFC 168: Weidman vs Silva 2

[David]

Not enjoying Jon Fitch's brand of grappling doesn't mean you're clueless about grappling.

Of course it doesn't, but when someone says that Fitch's style basically consists of "lying there in the missionary position for 15 minutes", they're either being flippant, haven't actually watched Fitch fight, or simply haven't got a clue what they're talking about.

 

I think it's fair to say that the general rule of thumb is that unless you hit the ground with a lot of action you're going to get stood up. In fact, I'd even say that we're seeing more & more stand ups when the action on the ground is perfectly acceptable.

 

How many times has Fitch been stood up during his fights? If he were simply taking people down and "laying there in the missionary position for 15 minutes" he would be getting stood up all the time.

 

He doesn't though, does he? You know why? Because he takes people down and he fucks them up. He's constantly looking to improve position, looking for submissions, throwing elbows and strikes.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally I love a good grappling match. Some of my favourite fights - Nog vs Barnett, Sakuraba vs Newton, Sanchez vs Diaz, Parisyan vs Diaz, Griffin vs Guida, Maia vs MacDonald, Hughes vs Trigg - were pretty much all grappling. And I love BJJ so much I've taken it up last year. I don't consider myself an expert or anything but I know what I'm looking at in regards to grappling and I understand what's going on. I'm sure most MMA fans who have watched for a decent amount of time are like that.

Indeed, which is why I'm as surprised when people like you come away with the "laying in the missionary position for 15 minutes" nonsense. As I said above, you're either being flippant, or, in this case, just being an arse, as you most likely know just as much as I do about the ground game, so you know fine well that what Fitch does isn't "just laying there".

 

You may not like it, but it's not what you claim it is.

 

But when you watch a guy take another guy down and that's it for five minutes. Then rinse and repeat again the next round, and the next. Doing nothing of note, it's boring as fuck. It's no different than a striker who won't engage and just pops off a couple of jabs then backpeddles all night. Boring fights are boring fights and when a fight is dull I don't give a shit how much technique and little nuances are there, if it's a snoozer it's a snoozer.

I agree. Repeated takedowns with no follow up are not the best to watch, and thankfully we see officials stand these guys up more often than not. As far as repeated takedowns go, I disagree with how they get scored, but they are part of the game, and as such it's up to the opponent to stuff them and then implement his own gameplan.

 

 

Why is it that any time an MMA fan talks about star power or who could be a big star or whatever, the old 'thats your pro wrestling fan head talking' stuff gets thrown out? As if self promotion is exclusive to pro wrestling.

It doesn't happen all the time, I've only really seen a negative response when the person mentioning it does so in the manner of a smarky wrestling fan. What you will see is people (usually me) remarking that you can be the best promo guy in the world, but in a real sport where the endings are not pre-determined you'll have a limited shelf life. MMA fans will buy into the hype so many times, but if you're continually getting your arse kicked the attraction will wane.

 

Even Chael Sonnen made subtle changes to his "persona" after he got fucked up a few times, upping the comedy and slapstick before he faced Jon Jones (much to the dismay of some). He knew his act needed changing up if it was going to stay relevant, because whilst he could talk his way into the top fights, he couldn't make the leap ability-wise.

 

I remember having a discussion about how Kimbo Slice was going to be a "big star". He had the look, he had the ridiculous background, the lot. If it was WWE he'd have been PPV gold.

 

Unfortunately, he couldn't actually fight. Apparently this actually matters.

 

The "big star" fought on the Ultimate Fighter finale to a unremarkable decision win, then when he made his PPV debut he was the 2nd fight in, gassed, got stopped and got cut shortly after.

 

A "big star" indeed. Most definitely a "thumbs down" I think.

[Supremo]

I remember having a discussion about how Kimbo Slice was going to be a "big star". He had the look, he had the ridiculous background, the lot. If it was WWE he'd have been PPV gold.

 

Unfortunately, he couldn't actually fight. Apparently this actually matters.

 

The "big star" fought on the Ultimate Fighter finale to a unremarkable decision win, then when he made his PPV debut he was the 2nd fight in, gassed, got stopped and got cut shortly after.

 

A "big star" indeed. Most definitely a "thumbs down" I think.

That discussion was with me. But it was never about how Kimbo was going to be a big star. It's that he was a big star.

 

We discussed it over...

 

And over....

 

But you never ever seemed to grasp the point. I can only assume you don't understand the nuts and bolts.

[Supremo]

Weidman on fighting Belfort in Vegas

 

"I'm happy about (fighting in Las Vegas)," Weidman said. "He's fought in Brazil now for the last two years, and obviously he looks like the Hulk now. He's on TRT and he's been caught cheating before for testosterone and I don't know what else.

[Dead Mike]

Weidman's spot on, the NSAC's testing should remove any ambiguity of unfair advantages etc.

 

 

On a side note, I heard Joe Rogan talking about a documentary on his podcast called 'The Oxycontin Express'. It's about pharmacies & doctors in Florida prescribing insane amounts of opiates & peoples addiction to legal drugs. I watched it on youtube the other night & alongside opiates these places were also advertising testosterone to customers. It must be pretty widespread in everyday use? I know Ebb listed the benefits you can get & it seemed pretty amazing. I guess I'd always assumed it would be harder for athletes to obtain to cheat whereas it seems like you can just go & buy it. Made me wonder just how many normal blokes are using it for recreational purposes when it's on a billboard outside a pharmacy?!

[David]

Weidman's spot on, the NSAC's testing should remove any ambiguity of unfair advantages etc.

 

 

On a side note, I heard Joe Rogan talking about a documentary on his podcast called 'The Oxycontin Express'. It's about pharmacies & doctors in Florida prescribing insane amounts of opiates & peoples addiction to legal drugs. I watched it on youtube the other night & alongside opiates these places were also advertising testosterone to customers. It must be pretty widespread in everyday use? I know Ebb listed the benefits you can get & it seemed pretty amazing. I guess I'd always assumed it would be harder for athletes to obtain to cheat whereas it seems like you can just go & buy it. Made me wonder just how many normal blokes are using it for recreational purposes when it's on a billboard outside a pharmacy?!

I'll tell you what, when I hit 40-45 I'll be doing my best to get hold of some quality HGH. The advantages of it from such an age far outweigh the negative points.

[Egg Shen]

me too, i can't wait to get on that shit.

[David]

me too, i can't wait to get on that shit.

Fucking right. What are the risks by that point? Cancer after taking it for 10 or 15 years? I'll be 60 odd by then! Chances are I'd be half-dead if I wasn't on it!

[wandshogun09]

David - you can keep calling me flippant or an arse all you like, it's you who resorted to name calling in here. Calling someone a cunt because they made a sarcastic post was a bit strong wasn't it? Now I'm an arse because I've besmirched the mighty Jon Fitch's good name? I'm the flippant one when you're throwing stuff out about how uneducated and clueless other posters are compared to yourself?

 

Back on Fitch, I'm not saying anything about ref standups or what should happen, I'm saying I personally find him boring as fuck most of the time. Posting pictures of him dominating a blown up lightweight won't change my mind. That was a pretty boring fight as well. I never said Fitch wasn't a good fighter, or effective or skilled, I'm saying I found him dull to watch. He had his moments - the Erick Silva fight, Sanchez, Burkman 1 - but on the whole, I found him very boring to watch.

 

There's a difference between the grappling fights I posted and what Fitch usually does. No-one can tell me Fitch's style is typically as entertaining to watch as Griffin vs Guida or Maia vs MacDonald or any of those fights. Matt Hughes was pretty much solely a grappler his entire career, and I thought he was a dickhead. But I still enjoyed his fights. He was very rarely boring and he would work to finish fights most of the time. The problem I had watching Fitch was that you knew he was good. He had the skills. He had underrated BJJ and some decent standup. Yet nearly every fight was the same. I always felt like he could finish guys but a lot of times chose to just play it safe and ride out the time. That's his right but it doesn't mean I have to enjoy watching it. Or that I'm less educated because I find it boring.

 

On the star power stuff, I don't see why being a 'star' and being a good fighter are mutually exclusive. Yes fighting is what matters most. First and foremost if you can't fight you won't last long in MMA. Kimbo was a star. But yeah, unfortunately he didn't have the fighting ability to maintain his position and he was gone soon enough.

 

Chael Sonnen is an excellent fighter. He talks a great game and he's still a very good fighter. He didn't earn the shot at Jones but we've been over that countless times. The stuff I read before that fight though, basically saying that Chael was a joke and stuff was just goofy talk. Chael dominated Yushin Okami who everyone was struggling with at the time. He dominated Nate Marquardt who was in his best form at that time. He breezed through Brian Stann who people were rating highly at the time. Took Anderson into deep water. Has since submitted Shogun. Chael is a quality fighter. Conor McGregor is showing a lot of promise to go with his star power. Like I said before, I don't think he'll be a title holder but I'd love to be proven wrong on that.

 

I don't know what you're getting at with the 'fighting matters' stuff. Nowhere did I say it didn't matter. Me thinking Fitch is dull and saying fighters knowing the value of promoting themselves is a good thing for them/the sport doesn't = me saying fighting doesn't matter and the UFC should be Monday Night Raw with rounds.

[David]

David - you can keep calling me flippant or an arse all you like, it's you who resorted to name calling in here. Calling someone a cunt because they made a sarcastic post was a bit strong wasn't it?

Simmer down lad, I never called you a cunt.

 

Now I'm an arse because I've besmirched the mighty Jon Fitch's good name?

No, it has nothing to do with besmirching anything. You claimed that Fitch "lays there in the missionary position for 15 minutes", which, being a student of the game and someone who claims to have done a bit of rolling, should know simply isn't true.

 

If you had made that accusation about only Jake Shields I would have agreed with you, as he basically treats every MMA fight like a no-gi grappling match, using very little striking offence on the ground.

 

But Fitch isn't the same, and I think you know that. He's rarely been the subject of referee stand-ups, and is always moving to improve position whilst using elbows & strikes.

 

I'm the flippant one when you're throwing stuff out about how uneducated and clueless other posters are compared to yourself?

Hold the phone there big guy, I never mentioned anything about other posters being uneducated, I said other fans. I consider pretty much all of the regulars on this forum to be knowledgeable on the mechanics of an MMA fight.

 

If you look back at what I posted you'll see that I said;

 

They aren't as bad as the "just bleed" types who start booing and throwing their beer around, rather choosing to fire off a "thumbs down" email to ~DA MELTZ~, or smugly talking about how such guys won't generate "buyrates" or do "the ratings" any good.

 

In essence, they are the flipside of the hardcore MMA fan you're talking about. Two cheeks of the same arse, if you will.

The only time I made any reference to the people who post regularly on this forum (ie; us) was;

 

Generally, most of us fall into the middle somewhere, appreciating exciting fights, but also recognising that as a "sport" there is a requirement to put the guys who are actually good at fighting into the title fights.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment, no? As you said, most of us have been, or still are, pro wrestling fans and as such know how the two worlds mesh together. Thankfully we have none of the types you can find on the Observer forums, or on the flipside of that coin, the Sherdog forums, which is who I was referring to when I talked about "they".

 

Back on Fitch, I'm not saying anything about ref standups or what should happen, I'm saying I personally find him boring as fuck most of the time. Posting pictures of him dominating a blown up lightweight won't change my mind. That was a pretty boring fight as well. I never said Fitch wasn't a good fighter, or effective or skilled, I'm saying I found him dull to watch. He had his moments - the Erick Silva fight, Sanchez, Burkman 1 - but on the whole, I found him very boring to watch.

See, if you'd said you simply found him boring then fair enough, but you lumped him in with the Jake Shields of this world of guys who get the takedown and who basically look as though throwing a strike is something that disgusts them.

 

He's a grinder, he's not everyone's cup of tea, but he's not a lay & pray merchant. He works constantly, and is well known for his cardio and his ability to completely destroy the will of an opponent by completely controlling them.

 

There's a difference between the grappling fights I posted and what Fitch usually does.

Just like the stand-up, there's different styles of ground fighting though, isn't there? Fitch isn't a straight submission guy, he's a grinder.

 

No-one can tell me Fitch's style is typically as entertaining to watch as Griffin vs Guida or Maia vs MacDonald or any of those fights. Matt Hughes was pretty much solely a grappler his entire career, and I thought he was a dickhead. But I still enjoyed his fights. He was very rarely boring and he would work to finish fights most of the time. The problem I had watching Fitch was that you knew he was good. He had the skills. He had underrated BJJ and some decent standup. Yet nearly every fight was the same. I always felt like he could finish guys but a lot of times chose to just play it safe and ride out the time.

The problem Fitch had (and the problem that Askren has today)is that on the ground there wasn't anyone who came close to being as good at what he does as he did outside of the top two or three fighters in his division. A decent wrestler wasn't going to outwrestle him, and he spent years offering his neck to everyone he fought but no one could submit him. Even the best grappler on the planet couldn't submit him, despite having his back and a body triangle for a large portion of the bout.

 

That made for largely "boring" fights for some people. Styles make fights, and when he was in there with guys who had a skillset that could make life difficult for him we saw him adapt and change shit up, such as he did against Silva and his loss to St-Pierre in 2008.

 

Basically, if you find him boring, fair enough. Talking about him laying in the missionary position for 15 minutes is way off the mark, and I was disappointed that someone of your knowledge would say that.

 

I expect that kind of chat from Ebb, not you!

[Egg Shen]

oh, don't bring me into this!

[David]

oh, don't bring me into this!

[pryko]

I just want to see Weidman win decisively over a top opponent, or get to fuck basically.

 

I don't rate Munoz all that highly, and a decision win over Maia and wins over Tom Lawlor and Jesse Bongfeldt don't quite scream "champion" at me.

if you want to see a decisive Weidman win, you should watch this fight he had one time with a guy called Anderson Silva. They've fought twice, but watch the first one where he knocks him out. That's a decisive win for Weidman

Aye, very good. Is one of your new year resolutions to be a smart cunt then?

 

David - you can keep calling me flippant or an arse all you like, it's you who resorted to name calling in here. Calling someone a cunt because they made a sarcastic post was a bit strong wasn't it?

Simmer down lad, I never called you a cunt.

I think Wandshogun may have been talking about me here, with your comment the other day

[Supremo]

So let me get this straight. Jon Fitch was one of the very best because he managed to take whoever he wanted down, control the fight at will and smash them with punches and elbows. Chris Weidman on the other hand, despite taking the greatest fighter of all time down and smashing him with heavy punches for about 90% of both fights, before finishing him each time, is still not considered legitimate or a "proper," champion? Crazy.

 

I mean, fucking hell, nobody ever really mentions it, but between that first and second round of their first fight you had Anderson Silva literally begging Weidman to keep it standing. He can be seen, quite clearly, telling Weidman to, "stand up," before motioning to the crowd, as if keeping it standing would please them. That's how good Weidman was on the ground and how spooked Silva was.

 

In fact, the more I rewatch and think about both fights, the more impressive Weidman seems. People try and take credit away from the first victory by saying Anderson was clowning too much, but the only reason Anderson was clowning was because that was the only chance he had. He was shitting himself after that first round. Clowning was practically desperation mode from him. Chris was fucking destroying him in every other way. And then in the second fight, when Anderson had realised the clowning wasn't going to work, Chris went on to first knock him out temporarily in the clinch, then win by nullifying the only other thing Anderson had; the leg kicks.

 

Seriously, Chris Weidman is the man. His performances in those two fights were arguably more impressive than if he'd just knocked Silva out in ten seconds. He took everything Silva had and was simply better everywhere. Matt Serra's win over GSP was the type of performance that needed further legitimatising. That's a fluke win. Both of Weidman's wins, whilst perhaps not as satisfying to a viewer in terms of how they ended, were borderline destructions regardless. He's a hoss. On the level playing field that is Vegas I'll now go as far as to say I think he'll beat Vitor too.

[jimufctna24]

For myself its not always who you beat, its how you do it.

 

Other than the Maia fight which he had a short weight cut and laboured to a lackluster points win, Weidman has been pretty impressive.

 

He destroyed Munoz, who is around top 10, not just beat him, destroyed him and made him look a good few levels below. He knocked down Anderson Silva with a hurtful shot, no one has done that (Chael's punch put Anderson on his pants but did not really hurt him as such) Other guys who are below contender status he has beaten convincingly as well. He is very consistent.

 

Weidman visibly caused more damage to Anderson on the ground than Hendo and Chael did (in a much shorter period of time that Chael was allowed), he had him in serious trouble and caught him with some hurtful shots. Weidman also had the advanced striking skill set to trade with Anderson for periods and not get hurt. He showed he can follow instruction well with how he learnt to block leg kicks. Weidman has been in a cage with Anderson for around 15 minutes and did not get hurt once.

 

I do not really like Weidman, I find him generic as a person, and see nothing as a fan that can sink my teeth into wanting to see him fight other than his obvious talent. Even Fedor there was a certain mystique to, and he was hardly Mr Charisma. But on pure skill, I have very few questions. I expect him to handle Vitor when they meet.

 

Edit: And David do not call Wand an arse, he is more of a pillock in my opinion

 

All jokes aside I did laugh at "I've besmirched the mighty Jon Fitch's good name?"

[David]

I think Wandshogun may have been talking about me here, with your comment the other day

Ah, fair enough then. I stand by that one