The Official UKFF RAW Thread...

[King Pitcos]

Is the WWE's business really that bad financially though? It is amazing that they have not created any stars but still manage to be so profitable. The business model is completely different to way back when.

 

Business isn't bad at the moment, but it's being propped up by the TV deals. If USA lowball them when it comes time to negotiate the next one, they're fairly fucked.

[The Clint]

If we don't hear them bang on about that 'Season Premiere' bullshit on Monday it means they must've dropped it.  How can they even have a season premiere episode when it runs 52 weeks a year with no breaks? 

[PowerButchi]

Start of the Fall TV Season.

[Pinc]

They haven't created a genuine star since 2005. To think that Cena and Batista were the last two genuine business effecting stars that they made is scary. Even the people we thought were stars like Punk and Bryan really weren't. They were just two guys that had a belt that hardcore fans liked but no one else wanted to pay to see. With the way they do things now, I just can't see where a star is going to come from.

Eh, Punk just near doubled the buyrate for a UFC PPV based entirely on the brand WWE built for him. I don't think it's right to say he and Bryan weren't stars. There are other guys like Rey and Jeff Hardy who have definitely moved the needle since Cena/Batista came through, but they've all fallen away for one reason or another.

 

The Shield and Bray Wyatt are the big fuck ups. They swam up stream with Reigns and Rollins in the wrong face/heel alignment for two years, emasculated Ambrose and made Wyatt an after thought who inevitably loses whenever he faces anyone with any pedigree.

 

They have a genuine crop of guys in NXT with a combination of star power and internet points in Joe, Nakamura, and Roode, but all have age against them. That's not the handicap it once was though - everyone looks younger these days. That's why Red Hot Chili Peppers can still go on Carpool Karaoke bollocko and Kanye West is the biggest rapper in the world at 40.

 

They can get five proper main event years out of Joe, Nakamura, and Roode if they play their cards right. Here's hoping they do.

[UK Kat Von D]

Play their cards right? Obviously you mean start them off with a lot of fanfare, dwindle it down to Midcard after three months then just have them trade wins with Dolph till they decide to take more money on the indie circuit?

Edited September 22, 2016 by UK Kat Von D

[Briefcase]

I don't mind them giving Seth a face turn, but they haven't really done it properly have they? Teases here and there at most but thats about it.

 

The Seth of old who was calculating and the brains behind the Shield who was always one step ahead of everybody else, has suddenly decided to run down to the ring, climb the cage and leap off of it into a cage with Rusev & Owens, and even Roman given they've had recent history.  That isn't the Seth I loved...

[Dirty Eddie]

They had the perfect time and reasons to turn Seth face when he returned from his nasty injury and they just didn't bother. It would have been an ideal way to show him humbled by the love of the fans, in a way he didn't expect, leading to a change of heart and a fiery, no more bullshit, no more running away, new and improved superface Seth Rollins. Instead he came back as the same whiny twat, except now we like him, because Triple H beat him up a bit. Fuck that.

 

Regarding making new stars; this "internet points" thing is being way overblown as well. Sure, the likes of Aries, Roode and Nakamura were over the second they walked in the door, but if "internet points" are needed to get over and stay over (both in NXT and then on the main roster), then how do you explain the likes of Enzo and Cass, American Alpha and Bailey? None of them were internet favourites before they were on TV (I don't think), they are all just regular products of the WWE system. No RoH runs, NJPW tag titles or ten years of TNA internet fandom. Hell, Cass and Jordon should be hated if we're are sticking to silly internet-fan stereotypes, just for being tall and having muscles, respectively. They got over because the individuals all had talent, the promotion introduced the audience to the acts in a coherent way and then they continued to book them well. No "internet points" required, just logical booking and no cutting off of legs half way through a push. 

 

The problem with the main TV product and PPVs, as it has been for years and years, is inconsistent booking that focuses on authority figures, part-timers and McMahons far more than the vast majority of the roster.

 

They seem hell bent at times on making their Champions look like useless cunts too. In the past couple of weeks we've had Bryan and Ziggler arguing with The Miz over the fact that he's a coward and not a "real, manly, brave, fighting Champion". Meanwhile the very top title gets completely handed to Owens thanks to non-wrestler Triple H beating up the other two men in a triple threat match. So if Miz is undeserving and a cowardly Champion, what the fuck is Owens? He clearly didn't deserve the title. Just like Seth before him. Randy Orton before that. Sheamus, of course, don't forget how unworthy he was. Brock is the only heel Champion that has had proper credibility in years, and that's probably because if they tried to do any hokey shit with him, he'd tell them to fuck off and leave.

 

 

[tiger_rick]

but if "internet points" are needed to get over and stay over (both in NXT and then on the main roster), then how do you explain the likes of Enzo and Cass, American Alpha and Bailey?

You mean those products of NXT? An Internet exclusive show? I can't imagine how they'd acrue "internet points".

 

I know you like the anti-Pitcos gimmick but there is clear merit in the argument. There is a visible section of the fanbase who will get behind people they consider to have proved their talent outside of the main roster regardless of their character or disposition and "rebel" against the people WWE see as having real superstar potential. The sad wankers.

 

I've not ignored your other points, they're perfectly valid too but the underlying problem is in the fanbase. I'd embrace it personally, they should have for the last two years. Eventually everyone will have internet points and the problem will go away.

[King Pitcos]

Enzo, American Alpha and Bayley have been Internet darlings long before they got called up. Big Cass is a bit of an anomaly there, he's popular as the team guy but because he's tall the internet is already tensing up ready to turn on him if he ever gets the singles push. You can feel it (well, read it) every time he gets put in a big singles match.

 

Kevin Owens definitely did deserve it, did you not hear the chants when Triple H handed him the belt? Imagine what a clusterfuck of a moment that must have been for a normal tuning in. A fat bloke who looks like a fan who won a competition being handed the belt, and people reacting like he's been the big hero.

 

When booing and cheering is done based on whether someone's got plus or minus Internet points rather than performances and characters, no characters can really get over without doing the Evil Vince's Guys vs Meltzer's Guys storyline someone suggested before. And doing that runs into the problem of them having your heels be much more attractive and superhero-looking than your babyfaces. There's a reason Batman's the protagonist and Penguin is the antagonist.

 

The part-timers are protected from the problem that's killing the full-time guys, because they're special attractions and they have the nostalgia factor from before we were so cynical. Even if you hate Undertaker for not putting over DaYungGuyz and taking up TV time, chances are it's a big fucking thrill if you're at Raw or Smackdown and his entrance hits. I can't stand The Rock most of the time, but if I'm at a WWE show and his music hits, I'm ejaculating in pant and on head of man in front.

[Vamp]

I feel like a lot of WWEs problem is the brand itself. They have a nerdy fan base who watch everything who see the brand as evil and the antithesis of everything good about what they watch. It's a bizarre situation to be in.

 

It's even more of a problem as the brand becomes more insular.

 

It'd be interesting to know the proportion of fans at the moment who would identify themselves as WWE fans. If your product relies on their reactions you're going to want then to be on side to begin with. Otherwise how do you stamp a guy as The WWE Guy and expect the fans to cheer them?

 

At the moment there's plenty of mainstream things with nerdy loyal fan bases. Mainstream things that don't cater to that nerdy fan base exclusively because that would be a rubbish way of making big money. But they manage to make that nerdy fan base be a part of something and the brand be a Something. And then they keep that fan base on board as they chase a bigger audience.

[King Pitcos]

That's an excellent point. It's like Scott Hall said to JBL: "The haters already got the network." Is there any other fandom that has the same dynamic? The same sense of entitlement in fans is evident online in film and computer game comments, but they're different because there's no one-brand monopoly of the industries.

[Dead Mike]

I feel like a lot of WWEs problem is the brand itself. They have a nerdy fan base who watch everything who see the brand as evil and the antithesis of everything good about what they watch. It's a bizarre situation to be in.

 

 

That's not true at all. The posters on here are as hardcore/IWC/Smarky (whatever term you prefer) as any fan anywhere & I wouldn't say people see WWE as evil in the slightest. The problem comes when you pull back the curtain for all to see the inner machinations, or to give people the impression they know what's going on. Once this has been done everyone is going to think they know a better way of booking your shows, which wrestlers should get pushed etc.

 

The comparison with comic book fans is likely the closest you'll find but the major difference is that film fans aren't actively part of the 'show'. If comic book fans were given a regular outlet to voice their displeasure at the casting of the new Joker live on TV in front of the people responsible (and actively encouraged to do so) you think they wouldn't?

 

To me at least, it feels like WWE are in a transition period. There are times where it feels like they're listening to the customers & getting a lot right (lots of the call ups, handling of talent in NXT) & the flipside to that being them blatantly ignoring the audience & persisting with delivering stuff that people simply don't want. Either through promoter arrogance (something you see in lots of other forms of live entertainment) or maybe because they've invested a lot financially in a certain person & don't want to write it off? 

[UK Kat Von D]

Rusev and Ryback didn't have any internet points and haven't been rejected by the fans.

 

The whole arguement is massively flawed. Fans don't decide who they like based on where they worked before WWE. Fact. Internet darlings come in with a good start which is useful for obvious reasons. They also have that to fall back on when WWE give them terrible programs or even no program at all.

 

If someone is brought in and promoted well the fans will respond accordingly. If an indie star is brought in and they aren't promoted well they can get by on good will built up.

[Dead Mike]

The term 'internet fan' is pretty much redundant in 2016. Everyone is an internet fan with social media and online interaction being pushed heavily by WWE themselves. Everyone is 'smartened up' to how it works.

 

The only time this term is used seems to be by wrestling fans wanting to pretend they're somehow superior to other wrestling fans. It's very strange.

[Briefcase]

When you think about it, when was the last big face/heel turn?

 

Probably AJ Styles that I can really think of in recent times, the likes of Seth, Reigns, Cena, Ambrose, Owens, Rusev etc have been face/heel for years now. People get bored of the same thing, its bad enough watching RAW at the best of times as its all samey, but when you look at who is on the show, none of the characters have really changed the last two or three years, all still faces/heels.

 

At the top of my head, its only been AJ Styles, Jericho (who always turns), New Day (although they became popular so naturally turned) that has changed, you could maybe throw one or two tag teams in there, but across two brands thats quite poor. They may have tried their hand with Wyatt but he got injured and lost momentum. 

 

Seth could be the next one but even then they've missed the opportunity I think. 

**Edit** Some may say Brock Lesnar, but to me he has always been a tweener/heel anyway when you think he's faced Cena/Undertaker/Ambrose/Reigns/Orton the last few years. 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Briefcase