Random thoughts thread v2 *NO NEWS ITEMS*

[Wittie]

I agree, it doesn't need to be smooth, go and watch Jerry Lawler matches, nothing he did was 'slick', so to speak. Or even old Terry Funk matches.

[Forrest]

I really have to agree with Pitcos' sentiments about match structure these days. I feel I'm starting to become a broken record but there are tons of amazing athletic matches all the time on Raw and Smackdown, so much so that they now all blur together and they're just not memorable. Nothing has an impact, nothing means anything in the long run, the guys have an amazing match and everyone forgets about it three weeks later.

 

I would say that every single male member of the roster, barring maybe Khali and Hornswoggle, is able of pulling out a show-stealing four star match under the right conditions. The only problem is that it won't matter in two weeks time and people will have moved on to the next so-amazing-I-forgot-it-happened match.

 

Everything is so slick and polished, it feels more like ballet or gymnastics than a fight. The matches are conducted at three-quarters pace for me. There's no lightning-quick matches in WWE anymore, everything is conducted at a pace that means things are safe and controlled, and it's fucking boring. I can't remember the last time I saw a match with an element of danger to it (Maybe Brock vs. Cena) and as silly as it sounds, no-one's trying to kill themselves anymore. Even if the Cruisers were booked badly, it always felt like the title meant something because they were willing to do insane things that didn't always look pretty just to get a chance at the belt.

 

WWE has one of the greatest high-flying Cruiser rosters ever and they fight each other all the time, even though there isn't a Cruiser belt or division. They can all hang with anyone in terms of workrate, but everything just doesn't have that oomph, because there is a sense of the unexpected that is just not there anymore. I don't want it to sound like I want them to go all Jack Evans (I'm really sorry, Vamp) and start dropping each other on their heads for a one-count and throw psychology out the window. I just feel that the likes of Kofi and the Usos etc. have all the tools to have a match that makes me stand up and take notice, but for the most part, they don't. There's always a feeling that they could take it up a level, but they're too afraid to take any risks.

[d-d-d-dAz]

The style or pacing won't change anytime soon. From what I understand 'Speed Kills' is the unofficial motto of the new performance centre, its drilled into all the staff and is even plastered over all the walls.

[Dirty Eddie]

I think the issue is that you can have as many great, 20 minute matches as you want, but without a decent reason for the match to happen and some actual consequence to it, it's all very forgettable.

 

The Shield are a great example - they've probably had a dozen or more really cracking matches in tag and multi-man matches over the last year, but the only ones that really stand out to me are the matches with the Rhodes boys. The match where the Rhodes brother's jobs were on the line and then the tag title change was all pure drama. Real important stuff on the line and all a part of a well executed ongoing story. Give me a real reason for the match, something important on the line, a great match and a proper conclusion and I'm in. Just throw a match on telly for no reason every three weeks and I'm out.

 

It's no wonder I can't care about anything Kofi ever does; he's been on TV for about a thousand years and I know nothing about the man. They need juicy story-lines, creative angles and matches that matter for people to really start to give a shit.

[Fatty Facesitter]

But let's look back at the late 80's, for argument's sake. The product back then gave the impression of being "proper wrestling" and 'where the big boys play' but still didn't come across as anywhere near as stage managed as it does today. There's a way of doing it without being quite so polished and having everyone tow the party line of both heels and faces wearing cancer pink ribbons (a noble a cause as that is).

 

No matter how hard the WWE tries, it won't be Hollywood.

 

You could argue the same about a number of things from the late 80's, from TV shows to sports broadcasts. But time's have changed and WWE's production crew is absolutely phenonenal. Why wouldn't you utilise that to it's fullest in terms of the actual broadcasts and PPVs? If it's grit and stuff you're after, then that's just not what they're going for or trying to portray. What you could argue is that we need grittier characters, so to speak, and that's something I agree with. Then you can base your production for that particular worker around that theme, i.e a gritty music video, entrance, etc. But the product as a whole absolutely needs that slick, polished feel throughout in this modern era.

 

I think the issue is that you can have as many great, 20 minute matches as you want, but without a decent reason for the match to happen and some actual consequence to it, it's all very forgettable.

 

Yeah, totally agree. But it's nice to see the basic framework of said matches has vastly improved from ten, five, even a couple of years ago right across the card. The key now, as you say, is to inject more feeling into said matches. More reason to care, etc. And the first place to start on that journey is letting guys individuality start to come out. They've got the perfect platform to be able to do that now and the key is letting the shackles off a bit in that regard.

[CavemanLynn]

It seems counter-intuitive, at first, but I think the key to individuality is for the wrestlers to do less in matches. Look at their (gah, I hate this fucking word) move sets. Everyone has a move from everywhere. What's so cool about the cruisers when even Sheamus and Cena are coming off the top rope? Why the fuck is slimy psycho Randy Orton doing T-bone suplexes? Miz does a figure four because of ONE angle, and still needs the guy to be standing on both legs to hit his so called finisher. And everyone does everything every match. It's dumb. Your opponent does the same thing every week, but you still get caught by it, so you're a dumbass and I care less about you. Wrestling is about solid basics, good movement, and visual drama, with one or two things that stand out as individual trademarks. I've heard it said that wrestling is what happens between moves. It just seems right now, moves are getting in the way.

[Sphinx]

I've had a theory that wrestlers should be like Top Trumps - having defined strengths and weaknesses. That's where the debate between kids about who would win really comes into its own. It's kind of like superheroes. Too many wrestlers don't really have that.

[Carbomb]

What's so cool about the cruisers when even Sheamus and Cena are coming off the top rope?

 

Depends on the move they're hitting, surely? I'm sure there's no objection to Randy Savage's top rope elbow, Jimmy Snuka's Superfly Splash, Benoit's top rope headbutt or RVD's 5* Frog Splash. If they were hitting moonsaults, swanton bombs and SSPs at machine-gun pace by running up the turnbuckles, I'd agree, but they take their time to climb up and hit rather heavy-looking things like diving clotheslines, diving shoulder blocks and the Sicilian Slice.

 

Why the fuck is slimy psycho Randy Orton doing T-bone suplexes?

 

He's always had a slight technical edge to his matches, though - he's never been an out-and-out feral psycho like, say, Foley. Remember, he was the young blue-chipper, future-of-the-company, and the Legend-Killer before now. It'd be strange for him to go total brawler with no technique.

 

Miz does a figure four because of ONE angle, and still needs the guy to be standing on both legs to hit his so called finisher.

 

Not quite getting this one - the Rock Bottom, the Stunner, the chokeslam, the Trouble In Paradise, the Clothesline From Hell, Sweet Chin Music, etc., all require the opponent to be standing.

[air_raid]

It seems counter-intuitive, at first, but I think the key to individuality is for the wrestlers to do less in matches. Look at their (gah, I hate this fucking word) move sets.

 

Then why use it? Arsenal and repertoire are perfectly palatable real words.

 

Not quite getting this one - the Rock Bottom, the Stunner, the chokeslam, the Trouble In Paradise, the Clothesline From Hell, Sweet Chin Music, etc., all require the opponent to be standing.

 

The point is that working a leg for the Figure-4 might preclude the opponent from being vertical enough to hit the Skull-Crushing Finale, i.e. working the leg might actually be detrimental to Miz' chances of winning the match by pin with his normal finish, if he's unable to illicit the submission.

 

Never stopped Jeff Jarrett winning matches with The Stroke, which is almost the same move.

Edited November 25, 2013 by air_raid

[Carbomb]

Not quite getting this one - the Rock Bottom, the Stunner, the chokeslam, the Trouble In Paradise, the Clothesline From Hell, Sweet Chin Music, etc., all require the opponent to be standing.

 

The point is that working a leg for the Figure-4 might preclude the opponent from being vertical enough to hit the Skull-Crushing Finale, i.e. working the leg might actually be detrimental to Miz' chances of winning the match by pin with his normal finish, if he's unable to illicit the submission.

 

Never stopped Jeff Jarrett winning matches with The Stroke, which is almost the same move.

 

Ahhhhhhhh, I see! Sorry, didn't realise CavemanLynn meant the two moves in conjunction with each other, rather than as two separate finishers.

 

It's an odd point - I always had (for example) Jarrett's Figure Four as a sort of secondary finisher, rather than as a prelude to the Stroke, in the same way that other guys had an impact and a submission finish.

[CavemanLynn]

Not quite getting this one - the Rock Bottom, the Stunner, the chokeslam, the Trouble In Paradise, the Clothesline From Hell, Sweet Chin Music, etc., all require the opponent to be standing.

 

The point is that working a leg for the Figure-4 might preclude the opponent from being vertical enough to hit the Skull-Crushing Finale, i.e. working the leg might actually be detrimental to Miz' chances of winning the match by pin with his normal finish, if he's unable to illicit the submission.

 

Never stopped Jeff Jarrett winning matches with The Stroke, which is almost the same move.

 

Ahhhhhhhh, I see! Sorry, didn't realise CavemanLynn meant the two moves in conjunction with each other, rather than as two separate finishers.

 

It's an odd point - I always had (for example) Jarrett's Figure Four as a sort of secondary finisher, rather than as a prelude to the Stroke, in the same way that other guys had an impact and a submission finish.

 

Thanks for clearing up my post's meaning for me

 

Yes, my point was that a wrestler's arsenal (thanks for that as well) should fit logically together, IMO. It's one of the reasons I enjoyed Keiji Muto when he came back around 2000, with the Shining Wizard, pimp coat and Stone Cold goatee. He spent most matches knackering the opponent's legs with dragon screws and figure fours, which logically led to the opponent not being able to stand, hence setting them up for the Wizard. It was simple, logical storytelling that was subtly different depending on who he faced. It was a part of his solid rounded act - he wouldn't start attacking an opponent's arm just because. It makes sense to me - if I have a manoeuvre that I KNOW is going to put my opponent down, why faff around with other stuff? I get paid the same if it goes 2 minutes or 20! (Kayfabe)

 

There's probably waaaaay more evidence of wrestlers not doing this than doing it, but hey, it's not my fault nobody can rassle, grr, argh, rant rant rant etc.

[UK Kat Von D]

Stone Cold uses the word moveset on his podcast, which makes it okay to use

[Statto]

And everyone does everything every match.

 

That does wind me up, I must confess. The one that really gets me is Randy Orton and that rope-hung DDT, particularly the awful way he sets it up. Every single match.

[Forrest]

Orton's a prime offender for this. He does every single move, every single match. What also annoys me is that he goes for pinfalls after moves that have never won him a match in his life. It does my head in.

 

I genuinely can't remember the last Orton match that I was interested in. The Bryan matches were fucking guff.

[Ladiesman345]

Orton's a prime offender for this. He does every single move, every single match. What also annoys me is that he goes for pinfalls after moves that have never won him a match in his life. It does my head in.

 

I genuinely can't remember the last Orton match that I was interested in. The Bryan matches were fucking guff.

 

I didn't see any of the PPV bouts between Bryan and Orton, but the match they had on Raw just before Orton's heel turn was pretty damn good. The one that featured a lovely exploder type suplex through a table.