Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted March 2, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 Yes I have, but not to the extent of having kenzans hammered into their skull. Â I think it's less about sado masochism and more about a mental illness. I don't say that flippantly, I think there is something genuinely ill about the likes of Kobayashi and people who participate in 'Saw deathmatches'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Bellenda Carlisle Posted March 2, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 What you're left with is, people enjoying watching people hurt themselves and bleed. Which is pretty fucking weird. Â You say that like it's some sort of revelation you've worked out, everyone who knows what deathmatches are knows that's exactly what it is. Â Oh, ok. I didn't realise that you were comfortable with that. For me at least, it seems like something to be worried about. Â Hardly, I've said like 10 times in this thread that half these spots make me feel like puking. It's just obvious that it's a bunch of people getting off on seeing real gore legally, it couldn't be anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 So if you're agreeing with my, why are you arguing with me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Bellenda Carlisle Posted March 2, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 So if you're agreeing with my, why are you arguing with me? Â I always agreed, everyone does, I certainly wouldn't call it an argument, it's just you pointed it out like it wasn't something everyone who's ever seen a deathmatch already knows. Â a mental illness. I don't say that flippantly, I think there is something genuinely ill about the likes of Kobayashi and people who participate in 'Saw deathmatches'. Â Definitely, no sane person would do stuff like that for that crowd and pay, going back to earlier in the thread a good unbiased documentary looking into these peoples' lives and mentality would be a great watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamp Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) I'd never thought about Deathmatches as being more about BDSM than about wrestling. It actually makes an enormous amount of sense. Â It doesn't really. BDSM has a sexual element, deathmatch wrestling doesn't. Or at least I think it doesn't. Â I think that's oversimplifying queer sexualities to be honest. I won't go into it too much becuase I'm not an expert on the topic myself (I'm really, really not) and it goes into a lot of psychoanalysis bollocks which you either believe or you don't. The first thing that's striking about deathmatches is the very title. The death element. The death drive (according to Freud, who spoke a lot of bollocks to be fair) has very similar functions to love, it is about restoring the original unity we have with the mother. Death breaks the symbolic world that we live in and allows us to get back to what we had originally. So I dare say the high risk of all this and the notion of being involved with something with 'death' in the title is really a demonstration of such a perversion. If you believe in this sort of thing we all have the desire to get back to the original unity. Its gets expressed in different ways though. Love, for example, is supposedly a desire to be one with the Other but there's always a lack there which leads to anxities in relationships. Â Masochism is as much about the suspense as it is about the pain. What quite often pisses people off about death matches, and its already been mentioned in here, is the fact that 'wrestlers' just wait to be hit with a light tube, attacked with a syringe, etc. I would argue that not only would the performance of them fighting back prevent them from just waiting for the moment of gratification but it would also interfere with the audience's enjoyment. Obviously there's a sadistic element to watching deathmatches but there's also a mashochistic one, somebody mentioned earlier having to watch a clip through their fingers. The bit where a wrestler stands there openly waiting to be hit let's us know, without a shadow of a doubt, that it's going to happen, and that's part of the masochism of the whole thing. You mention it doesn't have a sexual element, but that's just a further example of the suspense. The lack of sexual involvement or orgasm is a part of the disavowel. Â The reason they don't care about the money is, I would have thought, because of the need to do this in front of an audience. Masochism is performative in nature, ritualistic, I'd imagine there's an intrinsic need for many of the people involved to do it in front of a crowd. The "bring the weapons" death matches are probably a top example of this. Â I mean, I'm always cautious when discussing psychoanalytic theory, because a lot of it either gets applied poorly (and I haven't done a good job here, I've barely touched the surface because deathmatches don't really interest me) or isn't something I personally believe to be true. I certainly would say there's a sexual involvement here though. Its a perversion. I mean, that's probably not the only reason people are involved in the scene, I'm sure there are those within it that have some form of mental illness but I'd be careful of just putting deathmatches down under mental illness. Â Ultimately anyone who tells you their sexuality is simple and they just wanna fuck her/him because they're hot is wrong. Sexuality is a complicated mess all the time. Its a big puddle of blood with glass, barbwire and whatever other debris you can think of in it. Â I've bored myself talking about that. And I've annoyed myself for not even having done it very well. Â Edit: Should be noted that when I suggest there's a sadistic element for thsoe who do enjoy it, I'm not using the term with the negative implications it has. In case anybody gets pissed at me for calling them a sadist. Aslo, there must be someone on here way better at this topic than I am. Edited March 2, 2012 by Vamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted March 2, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) On the contrary, I think that's an excellent post - probably more intelligent and well thought out than deathmatch wrestling deserves, to be honest! Â I'll be honest, I hadn't even considered the sexuality point about it being two blokes, so in no way was I attempting to simplify any element of gay sexuality at all, so if I had bothered to put any effort into my point, as you have, then I think that would have been clearer. Â As regards the 'mental illness' point, again, I think it is the degree to which this stuff is being taken. I've watched a lot of BDSM porn over the years, some of the most extreme stuff going and really nothing comes close to matching the horrors that you will now see in deathmatch wrestling. I still think there is a clear distinction to be made between the two and while I don't doubt there are some guys (and girls - I know there are a couple out there that do this stuff, LuFisto and Mickie Knuckles?) who 'get off' on what they are doing, I don't think there is much of a connection, personally. Â But again, I would seriously question the mental state of someone chuckling away as they have something pulled out of their head. Then again, I'm a total flapping screaming ninny if I get a small splinter in my thumb, so I guess I cannot relate on any level. Â Like I say, though, that's a great post and I think that it's yet one more reason why this has unexpectedly turned into one of the better threads I've seen on here for quite some time. Edited March 2, 2012 by Gladstone Small Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rule One Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Great post by Vamp. Â With me I now compare seeing deathmatches to watching daft youtube vids or something off a shock site like theYNC. I'm just desensitised to it all now. Edited March 2, 2012 by Rule One Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamp Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Oh, you made me realise another thing I should have made clearer, when I say queer sexuality I don't mean in the slang term where queer stands for gay, I mean it more in its actual sense of any sexuality that goes against the traditional percieved 'norm'. I only bring this up because I'm not sure how much of a latent homosexuality there is to it. I suppose there might be an act of repression to it. I might have a think about that later. But I'm not sure that the reason for it mostly involving men isn't more to do with issues regarding masculinity. There's lots of writing on bodybuilders (I'm sure everybody knows about this kinda thing by now) and how they start to develop breasts and display what's usually prescribed as a feminine trait for worrying about personal grooming and appearance to excessive levels. Bodybuilding is often seen as an excess of masculinity. If we take the masculine code as being about being active, being able to withstand pain and so on then it's probably not hard to apply that to deathmatch wrestling. Its an excessive desire to appear masculine. It might be interesting to map the peaks of deathmatches and its origins to what was happening in society at the time. Â Actually, issues of masculinity would be quite good to look at in relation to the deathmatch scene. It's worth bearing in mind though that even though deathmatches are an obvious example of queer sexuality it is something that you can find pretty much anywhere. Although I am someone that will argue that all films *can* be queer so that that statement for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Bellenda Carlisle Posted March 2, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 Great post vamp!  The whole thing was a great read, most of it was somewhat open to interpretation but this part was spot on  Masochism is as much about the suspense as it is about the pain. What quite often pisses people off about death matches, and its already been mentioned in here, is the fact that 'wrestlers' just wait to be hit with a light tube, attacked with a syringe, etc. I would argue that not only would the performance of them fighting back prevent them from just waiting for the moment of gratification but it would also interfere with the audience's enjoyment. Obviously there's a sadistic element to watching deathmatches but there's also a mashochistic one, somebody mentioned earlier having to watch a clip through their fingers. The bit where a wrestler stands there openly waiting to be hit let's us know, without a shadow of a doubt, that it's going to happen, and that's part of the masochism of the whole thing.  Brilliant (and I'm not just saying that because it directly addressed 2 things I'd said in this thread) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricTheRed Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Great thread. The main question for me surrounding deathmatches has always been: how far do these things go before somebody dies? Sounds a bit dramatic, but I myself used to be into watching deathmatches (until around CZW TOD2 time which was, what, 2005ish?) but stopped. The main reason was because I got somewhat involved in wrestling myself and realised that being able to control a crowd is an art form and doesn't involve dropping people on their heads or wrapping them in barbed wire. Also it was getting past the point of enjoyment for me. Me and my mates grew up loving ECW and I guess my interest came from that, but even ECW had some compelling characters and storylines. I really was shocked upon opening this thread at how much worse it had become and how much further people were going since I stopped watching. Some of the pics on here actually made me feel physically ill. I really am shocked that nobody has died from this. Â To me, deathmatches have always represented a small sub-culture who want to see blood, guts and gore but in a legal way. For example, none of these fans would go out and stab someone as it is not socially acceptable and they would goto jail, however these deathmatches are a legal way for people to live out their fantasies. Rather than search for videos of beheadings on the internet or watch their favourite horror movie they can actually go and watch this stuff live and justify it to themselves by saying that it's wrestling. In the minds of the people who watch this the "wrestlers" are "warriors" and all their scars and injuries are worn as "badges of honour". Same reason public hangings were so popular in centuries past I suppose. It may not be consciously sexually gratifying, however I definitely think theres a sub-concious sadomasochistic element to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vamp Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I'd like to do some more research on it really when I get a chance. Credit goes to Richie for starting the thread because I'd never really thought about applying any of that to deathmatches. But you're definately right about interpretation, that's partly why I brought it up, it'll be interesting to see what different interpretations we get of those ideas and of deathmatches from them. If I get a chance to read an article later there might be a few ideas from that which could stimulate conversation on deathmatches and wrestling in general if people are interested? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 How long has the Deathmatch culture been around? I mean, I remember Foley talking about some of the insane matches he had in Japan, but at that point it sounded more like an extension of a no-holds barred wrestling (or "hardcore") style than something as deliberately sadistic and artificial as the stuff talked about in this thread. Has deathmatch evolved out of the excesses of ECW or has it existed for longer in the wrestling sub-culture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted March 2, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 How long has the Deathmatch culture been around? I mean, I remember Foley talking about some of the insane matches he had in Japan, but at that point it sounded more like an extension of a no-holds barred wrestling (or "hardcore") style than something as deliberately sadistic and artificial as the stuff talked about in this thread. Has deathmatch evolved out of the excesses of ECW or has it existed for longer in the wrestling sub-culture? Â I guess it's a difficult one to pinpoint. There have been extremely violent wrestlers around for decades - guys like The Sheik and Abdullah The Butcher being the most obvious examples, and some of the spots they used were brutal and vicious. But I don't think, certainly in the early parts of their careers, they would have participated in much that resembled the kind of matches that were dreamt up by IWA Japan, BJPW and then FMW. Â Plus you have matches that have been called 'deathmatches' that bear no resemblance to these kinds of matches or anything you see these days - Mexican death matches, for instance, which have hardcore elements but nothing along the CZW/IWA:MS lines. I'm sure there was one event that probably kicked it all off, probably in Japan, but I'm sure there must have been something earlier than IWA's King Of The Deathmatches back in 1995. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Chris B Posted March 2, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted March 2, 2012 Vamp, that was superb stuff. You actually articulated exactly what I was very vaguely thinking of, but not able to articulate well myself. Very, very nice work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rule One Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Plus you have matches that have been called 'deathmatches' that bear no resemblance to these kinds of matches or anything you see these days - Mexican death matches, for instance, which have hardcore elements but nothing along the CZW/IWA:MS lines. I'm sure there was one event that probably kicked it all off, probably in Japan, but I'm sure there must have been something earlier than IWA's King Of The Deathmatches back in 1995. Â For Japan, the very late 80's. FMW was founded in '89 and rose to prominence as the leader in deathmatch/garbage/hardcore from about 90/91. Â It depends on what you define as a deathmatch because the US scene has had some very dangerous matches in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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