You’ve outstayed your welcome

[BomberPat]

the thing with "The Greatest Match Ever" is that it's actually a good example of why Randy Orton is Actually Good. Almost everyone else during that no-fans period was still working at the same pace, same rhythm, as they would with a full crowd, still leaving the same pauses and beats for a reaction. Orton in that match is quite interesting to watch in terms of how there are times when he would ordinarily slow down, where there he speeds up, or leaves very little breathing room, because the purpose of those pauses is to elicit a response, and with no crowd there's no need. But that's a level of detail that should be of more interest as a reference material for a training school than as a hotly promoted PPV match, and the branding was insane, even before they had the ghost of Howard Finkel announce it, so it's not a match that will ever be remembered for things like small detail work and timing, because it was sold as something it could never possibly be.

Edited February 28, 2023 by BomberPat

[The Gaffer]

I like Orton, but he said on an interview a few years ago - I think it was on the Stone Cold podcast - that his response to promos and angles written for him is more or less getting handed the sheet and going "You're the boss, that's not my area."

Imagine if Orton was actually arsed with the creative side of it down through the years. He easily could have been the megastar of the last decade or two. 

But yeah, perfect example of a guy where it doesn't matter what people online think of him. Death, taxes and going to a live event and seeing people from 6 to 60 wear t-shirts with snakes on them, cheering like mad for Orton. He's a star in the WWE system, and being bankable is a fine quality. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Gay as FOOK

[air_raid]

The best bits of Randy Orton as a highlight reel probably look like one of the best ten year careers of all time stretched out over 20+. He's been fantastic at times, but those times don't feel like they've been very often compared to when he's been "steady." He was a decent heel Intercontinental Champion and excellent at Mania XX and the following Backlash. Rated-RKO was a super alliance and the match he had with Shawn at Survivor Series 07 was brilliant, story around the superkick being illegal playing nicely into the finish. "IED" Orton was a favourite of mine and I'm not still sure I've seen another tense, "psychological thriller" type match the psychopath Orton had with Cena at Breaking Point. He had a few good matches in 2010 - in particular I was surprised how strong he put Swagger over at ((insert whatever they called the In Your House-type after Mania 26)). After that there are a fair few years where I struggle to remember anything decent - that silence that greeted him and Cena having a staredown in a Rumble spoke volumes. We'd seen enough of them wrestling each other. My prevailing memory of his years 10-15 in the company is that boring match with hot new babyface Roman Reigns at SummerSlam where Reigns could have done with a decisive victory in a match suited to his strengths, but instead they were made to work an Orton match. He also had terrible nonsense to endure with Wyatt and was nonsensically forced to lose the belt to Jobber Mahal. He came back to life in his run with Jeff Hardy in 2018 which should have felt like a stale re-run but actually was very watchable, and he got to display his sadistic side again, but even then I felt like "Why has it taken this long for Orton to be interesting again??" He has all the tools but it very seldom clicks for me. I saw him wrestle in a short tag dark at a SmackDown taping, and I was happy to tick him off my list, but it was more in the way of thinking "After this many years of seeing wrestling I should have seen Randy wrestle" rather than being genuinely happy to see him.

[Tommy!]

2 hours ago, RedRooster said:

Matt Hardy

 

2 hours ago, RedRooster said:

the myth that he is a creative person

Who ever thought this? Both the Hardy's strike me as people who shouldn't be anywhere near creative unless it's killing time to a company death and no one cares or really watch's, like TNA was when they were launching fireworks at each other for YouTube likes.

[air_raid]

Probably people that thought Mattitude/V1 was a great gimmick, which in turn came out of (1) Matt Facts being mildly amusing and (2) the Monster Magnet tune being fairly decent in the style of the time.

OK, it was a great gimmick. How much input Matt himself actually had, I know not.

[gmoney]

He also basically came up with the Broken Matt Hardy stuff as well right? As shit as that ended up being, that was great for quite a long time. 

[Vamp]

Orton is basically a better version of Kane at this stage. He's been a solid hand forever, sometimes as dull as dishwater, rare moments of greatness, and ultimately would have been great in the days of territories where he could fuck off for a bit. 

Ultimately though, he's done better than 99% of other wrestlers. Doesn't seem to be too banged up, largely seems content, maybe still an arsehole but no addictions. Probably has a good laugh at the likes of Punk who've only ever been miserable. 

[air_raid]

I had a thought yesterday, that the brilliance of the RKO as a finish may have played a big part in Orton staying so over, especially in the "outta nowhere" era and subsequent memes.

WRESTLING OF FUTURE PAST - Imagine if, when Cena and Orton were moving on from the Protobomb and Overdrive respectively, if they'd landed on the corresponding finish for the other? Randy Orton, forced to use the FU (which in honesty is a shit slam), and John Cena with his charisma and existing appeal, utilising the always-over Diamond Cutter? I have a feeling instead of discussing them in 2023 as peers in the "million time champions" and figureheads of their generation at the level they each reached, we instead may have been looking back at Orton as somewhere around the level of Mark Jindrak, maybe Jack Swagger or at the most Miz/Ziggler if his family name merited perseverance, while we debate who was more over in their prime, John Cena or Steve Austin.

[BomberPat]

The RKO is definitely a huge part of why Orton remained over, but I don't think you could just swap finishers and that be it. It's not like Bubba Ray Dudley became an instant main eventer by occasionally doing the "Bubba Cutter". 

It's more a perfect marriage of wrestler and move - Cena's FU/AA worked, despite starting out as a way for him to call-out Brock Lesnar in kayfabe, because it allowed him to show off feats of strength, while he would have lacked the timing and the quick reaction time required for some of Orton's best RKOs. The "out of nowhere" meme came about because of Orton's ability to catch people out of the air, counter other moves into it, or just snap into position without warning - I think Orton is probably better at that kind of timing and execution than just about anyone, and it's not where Cena's strengths lie, so a Cena version of the RKO wouldn't have got over in the same way and wouldn't have been meme-ified as a result. 

[air_raid]

6 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

The RKO is definitely a huge part of why Orton remained over, but I don't think you could just swap finishers and that be it. It's not like Bubba Ray Dudley became an instant main eventer by occasionally doing the "Bubba Cutter". 

True, but Cena became a main eventer, multiple time World champion, massive star and face of a generation either way, with a relatively toss finisher. If he could do a decent Diamond Cutter I reckon he'd have been loved even more. Not that "MOVEZ!" is a be all and end all, but when the moves in question are as crap as the FU and as good as the Diamond Cutter/RKO, I reckon they can make a difference. If.

Obviously if you're not getting there on your intangibles, it doesn't matter either way. Remember when Matt Morgan used the F5 for a finisher? Neither does anyone else.

[ElBigFella]

I'm going to have to say Bray Wyatt - multiple times. The guy gets me super invested for a couple of months, then his act gets very stale very quickly as there's nowhere to go. A dangerous place to be when your act relies on hocus pocus invincibility. 

[Devon Malcolm]

Regarding Matt Hardy, his finest moment was when he went to Ring of Honor and did that mock sad video with a slow piano version of his theme where he trolled the ROH barricade slappers. Can't find it now but it was brilliant.

[Vamp]

I'd argue that the point of the AA isn't the slam anyway. It's the bit where Cena's holding someone up on his shoulders. I've no idea how strong Orton is, but I don't see him being able to lift some of the people Cena has or being able to hold them for as long as Cena can. I don't think it's really intended as an impact move. It's like when Goldberg gave Hogan the jackhammer, the important moment wasn't the landing but the bit where he was holding Hogan up. 

I've always wondered what an Orton vs. Okada match would be like. Either it would be great, because they are great at timing and simplicity, or it'd be so boring that no one would ever remember it happened. 

[air_raid]

53 minutes ago, Vamp said:

I'd argue that the point of the AA isn't the slam anyway. It's the bit where Cena's holding someone up on his shoulders. I've no idea how strong Orton is, but I don't see him being able to lift some of the people Cena has or being able to hold them for as long as Cena can. I don't think it's really intended as an impact move. It's like when Goldberg gave Hogan the jackhammer, the important moment wasn't the landing but the bit where he was holding Hogan up.

I dunno, I always thought the Jackhammer looked pretty powerful. One of the best ones he did was the smooth rotation with zero delay on Raven who was fairly average size, in winning the US title in one of the two contenders for "best five minute match of the 90s."

1 hour ago, Vamp said:

I've always wondered what an Orton vs. Okada match would be like. Either it would be great, because they are great at timing and simplicity, or it'd be so boring that no one would ever remember it happened. 

The Rainmaker reverses into a short-arm RKO really nicely. In fact, Rainmaking cutter is exactly the kind of indyriffic stuff someone should be using as a finish in a leisure centre somewhere.

[SuperBacon]

5 hours ago, Vamp said:

Orton is basically a better version of Kane at this stage. He's been a solid hand forever, sometimes as dull as dishwater, rare moments of greatness, and ultimately would have been great in the days of territories where he could fuck off for a bit. 

Ultimately though, he's done better than 99% of other wrestlers. Doesn't seem to be too banged up, largely seems content, maybe still an arsehole but no addictions. Probably has a good laugh at the likes of Punk who've only ever been miserable. 

Hi Glenn.