Non binary folk

[Chest Rockwell]

What I was saying was that Monkee's post helped me to understand what other people were saying better. I get it, I have no argument here.

No-one should ideally have to explain themselves, but it is a new concept to a lot of people and the impulse to ask why is natural. The more you can bring people along for the ride and help them put themselves in your shoes, the more effective you will be trying to challenge and breakdown existing social norms. It's a fight they haven't asked for by simply feeling the way they do and other people should be sensitive to that but at the same time I think it's also hugely unfair for Steak's workmates to label him as some sort of hatemonger.

We are (mostly) pretty reasonable people here thankfully.

[tiger_rick]

I think it's a load of shite. I get Trans. Feeling you're the wrong gender must be horrendous and I completely sympathise. I don't remotely get this. If I'm honest, I think it feels like an attempt to be non-conformist which is fine, each to their own and all, but not something I think we should all entertain en masse.

That said, I completely accept that it's none of my business. It doesn't particularly affect me nor prey on my mind.

I'm pretty reasonable generally. Like the OP, I'd say I'm liberal. But, being honest, I do think it's bollocks. Happy to accept a pasting for that.

[Factotum]

I think Trans and non binary often gets folded into one another when it is, most of the time, very different. I think that leads to confusion and a lot of shouting which doesn't really make sense.

A lot of non-binary individuals reject the stereotypes placed on gender. Its a non conformist stance, a rejection of the 'conventional' thinking which places a certain gender in a box they have to conform to. They do not see gender as defining them so reject the idea of being referred to as 'she' or 'he' They wish to exist without society placing its perceived constraints on them. Sometimes it isn't even an expressionist thing (though that can be a big part of it with clothes or sexuality etc.) its at its basic core the rejection of the 'norm' which they see as repressive. Now that isn't the case for all i'm sure, and everyone will have their reasons.

Trans is someone feeling they are a gender, and should be referred to and treated as such. Its a complex issue itself in regards to rights, but the things are very separate most of the time. Indeed non binary would reject being referred to by a gender.

[Keith Houchen]

10 minutes ago, Factotum said:

A lot of non-binary individuals reject the stereotypes placed on gender. Its a non conformist stance, a rejection of the 'conventional' thinking which places a certain gender in a box they have to conform to. They do not see gender as defining them so reject the idea of being referred to as 'she' or 'he' They wish to exist without society placing its perceived constraints on them. Sometimes it isn't even an expressionist thing (though that can be a big part of it with clothes or sexuality etc.) its at its basic core the rejection of the 'norm' which they see as repressive. Now that isn't the case for all i'm sure, and everyone will have their reasons.

Gender stereotyping begins when the doctor or nurse say "It's a boy" or "It's a girl".  Going to sound like a stuck record here but I think a fair bit of intransigence regarding non binary is rooted in toxic masculinity and patriarchy.  The idea of "Manhood" not being as important as it once was scares a lot of men, and indeed some women, as they have to face their own preconceptions of what gender constructs are all about.  Don't know if you saw the Twitter thread but @Devon Malcolm linked a story about men not recycling in case they appear gay.  I think the same mindset is at play here.

[Devon Malcolm]

1 hour ago, tiger_rick said:

I think it's a load of shite. I get Trans. Feeling you're the wrong gender must be horrendous and I completely sympathise. I don't remotely get this. If I'm honest, I think it feels like an attempt to be non-conformist which is fine, each to their own and all, but not something I think we should all entertain en masse.

That said, I completely accept that it's none of my business. It doesn't particularly affect me nor prey on my mind.

I'm pretty reasonable generally. Like the OP, I'd say I'm liberal. But, being honest, I do think it's bollocks. Happy to accept a pasting for that.

Accepting the difficulties that the majority of trans people have with their gender whilst labelling non-binary as "bollocks" and blanket labelling all non-binary people as "non-conformist" is at best a really weird and muddled view to have.

[Chest Rockwell]

I get where he's coming from. If you don't think it's for personal reasons or personally affecting, but think of it as only a socio political stance then I can understand that position. Sits very much alongside your stance of personal stories and reasons being more important than generalisations.

[Merzbow]

"I understand the gays but those bloody bi lot? Just doing it for attention."

While it's not exactly that (I don't mean to lump gender with sexuality) it's eerily similar to how bisexual people were and sometime still are viewed.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Merzbow

[Ironic Indie Lad]

I just think that biologically you are absolutely either male or female at birth. That cannot be questioned.

Beyond biology, if you think about 'male' and 'female' culturally then whatever characteristics you want to adopt beyond should really be up to the individual. If you identify just as much with traditionally male characteristics as you do with traditionally female characteristics then I can totally see why you wouldn't want to be labelled as only one of these things.

Would be a bit like insisting a bisexual person picks a side.

For me it only becomes problematic and annoying when people want to identify as something wacky for attention because it takes away from the genuine issue.

(and also people who 'identify' as teenagers on tinder)

[SuperBacon]

4 minutes ago, Ironic Indie Lad said:

I just think that biologically you are absolutely either male or female at birth. That cannot be questioned.

Beyond biology, if you think about 'male' and 'female' culturally then whatever characteristics you want to adopt beyond should really be up to the individual. If you identify just as much with traditionally male characteristics as you do with traditionally female characteristics then I can totally see why you wouldn't want to be labelled as only one of these things.

Would be a bit like insisting a bisexual person picks a side.

For me it only becomes problematic and annoying when people want to identify as something wacky for attention because it takes away from the genuine issue.

(and also people who 'identify' as teenagers on tinder)

Not always. Some people are born intersex

[tiger_rick]

24 minutes ago, Devon Malcolm said:

Accepting the difficulties that the majority of trans people have with their gender whilst labelling non-binary as "bollocks" and blanket labelling all non-binary people as "non-conformist" is at best a really weird and muddled view to have.

I don't think so but then I wouldn't. I think there are two genders. Not for any reason of masculinity. I recycle and bum men so it's all good. I just think that's science. I completely understand people who feel they are X instead of Y instead of vice versa. I just think the concept of neither is nonsense. Respect those who don't, that's what the debate is for.

[Ironic Indie Lad]

7 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

Not always. Some people are born intersex

Did not know this

 

[DavidB6937]

I think this topic, even with two short pages, is a perfect example of why it's incredibly difficult to discuss things like this online. People jump in, either trying to make jokes or seeming confrontational when maybe they're not. Others try to help even if it's not something they're going through themselves, which is fine but inevitably someone will complain that they're speaking for those they don't represent etc.

It's very hard for someone to literally just come out and say "okay I honestly don't understand this" and try to wrap their head around it somehow. There's a lot of change going on in the world, and a lot of it isn't stuff that we were all brought up with, so some of it doesn't make sense. It's not that people aren't willing to change or accept these new things in the world but some just need a little more explanation to get why it's happening. And to be honest, I think that's okay, rather than everyone just being forced to accept that that's the way things are and it shouldn't bother them. I don't think it's necessarily 'bothering' them, and in fact I admire anyone who's looking to educate themselves with a willingness to understand something more. The world would probably be a far better place if more people did it.

[Ironic Indie Lad]

11 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

I think this topic, even with two short pages, is a perfect example of why it's incredibly difficult to discuss things like this online. People jump in, either trying to make jokes or seeming confrontational when maybe they're not. Others try to help even if it's not something they're going through themselves, which is fine but inevitably someone will complain that they're speaking for those they don't represent etc.

It's very hard for someone to literally just come out and say "okay I honestly don't understand this" and try to wrap their head around it somehow. There's a lot of change going on in the world, and a lot of it isn't stuff that we were all brought up with, so some of it doesn't make sense. It's not that people aren't willing to change or accept these new things in the world but some just need a little more explanation to get why it's happening. And to be honest, I think that's okay, rather than everyone just being forced to accept that that's the way things are and it shouldn't bother them. I don't think it's necessarily 'bothering' them, and in fact I admire anyone who's looking to educate themselves with a willingness to understand something more. The world would probably be a far better place if more people did it.

I broadly agree with this. Online if you said, for example, "what's the deal with non binary folk then?" you could literally just be asking for it to be explained to you because you don't understand it. It would instead be interpreted as "Hey guys, who do these wild greedy benders think they are?????"

Before you know it, you've been cancelled.

[Chest Rockwell]

I think this is a small enough closed community to be able to have a productive discussion on sensitive issues. We're hardly some shit tip like Twitter.

[Ironic Indie Lad]

9 minutes ago, Chest Rockwell said:

I think this is a small enough closed community to be able to have a productive discussion on sensitive issues. We're hardly some shit tip like Twitter.

So you're saying twitter is full of SJW Cuck Snowflakes???????????????????????