Paid Members Accident Prone Posted October 18, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted October 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Nah I can understand "Teletubbies Generation", it means someone who grew up watching Teletubbies, so it covers anyone who was a child between 1997 and now. So that means a parent and child could feasibly both be from the Teletubbies Generation. It makes perfect sense! Thanks for clearing that up, Keith! Really happy that I'll share the same generation with my future kids! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, BomberPat said: If I look at his schedule, I see a man who worked practically every day this month in Mexico, and for the remainder of the year was working practically every day of the week in Japan. And that's just the matches that have been documented on Cagematch. I don't look at that schedule and think, "wow, nobody in the US scene is booking this guy", I see someone working more consistently than the vast majority of wrestlers in the world, and most of that work being for two of the largest promotions in the world. I certainly don't think, "poor guy, all these NJPW shows means he's not getting booked to work in front of 150 people in a high school gym every week". Most of all, I don't think, "this guy's career is really suffering", not by a long shot. Over the same schedule - again, based on Cagematch - Zack Sabre Jr has worked fewer dates in total, no dates in Mexico, and none in the US. But no one's arguing that Zack has been "blacklisted" in the US - they just recognise that's not where his schedule is taking him right now. Come on now, regardless of if you agree that he's innocent or guilty of what he's been accused of you can't draw comparisons with someone who's apparently been told he's not welcome with someone who chooses not to go there voluntarily. That's just daft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted October 18, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted October 18, 2018 8 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Nah I can understand "Teletubbies Generation", it means someone who grew up watching Teletubbies, so it covers anyone who was a child between 1997 and now. So that means a parent and child could feasibly both be from the Teletubbies Generation. It makes perfect sense! I thought it was gonna be a tin foil hat club who think the sun is really the head of a giant baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 18, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted October 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, David said: Come on now, regardless of if you agree that he's innocent or guilty of what he's been accused of you can't draw comparisons with someone who's apparently been told he's not welcome with someone who chooses not to go there voluntarily. That's just daft. The point is that people are assuming that there's this collective decision by indie promoters all over the US and Europe to not book Michael Elgin - many of them promoters who have absolutely no problem booking any number of sex pests, wifebeaters, neo-Nazis and assorted bad eggs - with the only real argument being, "look, he's not working in the US". Well of course he's not, he's working Japan every day. My point is that you can look at any number of other indie wrestlers and say, "look, he's not worked the US in months" too. So not working the US particularly often isn't evidence that Elgin's career has been affected, as there are countless others on similar schedules. It's not proof of anything. And, again, when you're working one of the busiest schedules in wrestling, predominantly for two of the biggest companies in the world, how on Earth can you make the argument that your career has been ruined by allegations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, BomberPat said: The point is that people are assuming that there's this collective decision by indie promoters all over the US and Europe to not book Michael Elgin - many of them promoters who have absolutely no problem booking any number of sex pests, wifebeaters, neo-Nazis and assorted bad eggs - with the only real argument being, "look, he's not working in the US". Well of course he's not, he's working Japan every day. My point is that you can look at any number of other indie wrestlers and say, "look, he's not worked the US in months" too. So not working the US particularly often isn't evidence that Elgin's career has been affected, as there are countless others on similar schedules. It's not proof of anything. And, again, when you're working one of the busiest schedules in wrestling, for two of the biggest companies in the world, how on Earth can you make the argument that your career has been ruined by allegations? It's not a collective decision, no, but it has been shown that any US indie which has booked him, or attempted to book him, has received a torrent of online abuse from the accuser and people who follow her. I am not making the argument his career has been ruined and, as far as I know, neither is he - he is saying his career has been adversely affected and he has lost work which, as an independent wrestler, not being able to choose where/when you work and having your options limited because companies refuse to book you IS something that would adversely affect your career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Snitsky's back acne said: It's not a collective decision, no, but it has been shown that any US indie which has booked him, or attempted to book him, has received a torrent of online abuse from the accuser and people who follow her. I take it if he is suing for loss of earnings, he'll have proof of cancelled booking or broken contracts down to online abuse, so he should win that part of his lawsuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 18, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just now, Snitsky's back acne said: I am not making the argument his career has been ruined and, as far as I know, neither is he - he is saying his career has been adversely affected and he has lost work which, as an independent wrestler, not being able to choose where/when you work and having your options limited because companies refuse to book you IS something that would adversely affect your career. He's suing her for loss of earnings. While working a full schedule for one of the biggest companies in the world (and one of the few that signs workers to actual contracts, with a modicum of job security!), and an extended tour for one of the other biggest companies in the world, including winning a marquee tournament there. Suggesting that he's "only" able to work NJPW and CMLL, and not random American indies (ignoring the fact that he still does work indies in the US), is like complaining that your busy schedule at Chelsea is getting in the way of your Sunday League games. And, again, plenty of US (and UK/European) promotions have no problem booking other alleged (and proven) abusers, assaulters, nonces, sex pests, criminals, neo-Nazis and so on, so the idea that people have collectively drawn the line at Michael Elgin to the extent that it's affecting his earnings doesn't ring anything close to true, even without looking at Elgin's incredibly busy schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, BomberPat said: The point is that people are assuming that there's this collective decision by indie promoters all over the US and Europe to not book Michael Elgin - many of them promoters who have absolutely no problem booking any number of sex pests, wifebeaters, neo-Nazis and assorted bad eggs - with the only real argument being, "look, he's not working in the US". Well of course he's not, he's working Japan every day. My point is that you can look at any number of other indie wrestlers and say, "look, he's not worked the US in months" too. So not working the US particularly often isn't evidence that Elgin's career has been affected, as there are countless others on similar schedules. It's not proof of anything. And, again, when you're working one of the busiest schedules in wrestling, for two of the biggest companies in the world, how on Earth can you make the argument that your career has been ruined by allegations? Okay, let me understand this. Are there any promotions that this fella worked for regularly who have stopped hiring him based on the accusations? Maybe promotions closer to home? My point is that there's a difference between someone who's working overseas and in different countries because they want to do so, and someone who's being forced to do it because they can't work at home. If this Elgin chap falls into the latter category then he has grounds for complaint I'd say. He may not be having his career ruined, but if these accusations (which I assume are false?) have played a part in him having to go out of his way to find work elsewhere then he has every right to take whatever legal action his lawyer recommends. 3 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: I take it if he is suing for loss of earnings, he'll have proof of cancelled booking or broken contracts down to online abuse, so he should win that part of his lawsuit. I'm assuming he'll be suing for defamation of character or something like that? Or possibly he's just looking for a legal action to stop her from spreading what he believes are lies about him? Again, this all hinges on him being accused of something he didn't do. I assume that's the case here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: I take it if he is suing for loss of earnings, he'll have proof of cancelled booking or broken contracts down to online abuse, so he should win that part of his lawsuit. As far as I know he certainly has all of the statements made directly to the promoters of the companies threatening to boycott the shows if he is on them, saying that word will be spread that they book an abuser etc. His accusers social media accounts and DM's have been subpoenaed as evidence in the case so I guess we shall see. David, he is suing for defamation and loss of income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members BomberPat Posted October 18, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted October 18, 2018 For context, the accusations against Elgin were that he conspired to cover up a sexual assault claim against a former student. There are various other knock-ons to that, but that's the gist of it. And I don't think even Elgin has argued that he didn't horribly mishandle that one - he continued booking said student after he was told what happened, and only stopped when the story went public. Admittedly, some promotions did - in the very short term - cancel some of his bookings at the time. He also bragged publicly about pissing on a sleeping woman's face, so whatever your mileage on "accusations" against him, he openly admitted to sexual assault on at least that occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Accident Prone Posted October 18, 2018 Paid Members Share Posted October 18, 2018 There are very popular indies who book Shlak, a man who once said "Fuck nazis, and fuck non-nazis" in regards to people who bring up his past associations with fucking nazis, so I don't think Micheal 'Sex Pest' Elgin is really pushing their morality meter. Yes, Elgin may have suffered an initial dip in bookings when it was all coming out, but he most likely saw that and thought "Fuck it, I'm going all the way in New Japan then" and just fully-committed to their office. For a bloke who laughed about forcing himself and pissing on a woman, I think he's doing fine. But he'll have little chance when it comes to proving any loss of income considering his current position. "So you got more bookings oversees for this huge company AFTER the allegations were out in the public eye?" "Yes, your honour." "You supposedly lost bookings, where you performed in front of 100 to 400 people, and you've replaced them with bookings in Japan with a much larger company? A company who regularly hold shows in much bigger venues and with a much bigger profile? AFTER the allegations came out?" "Yes, your honour". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, BomberPat said: For context, the accusations against Elgin were that he conspired to cover up a sexual assault claim against a former student. There are various other knock-ons to that, but that's the gist of it. Was he found guilty of that though? I'm asking because this is all genuinely new to me today, I'd never really heard of Elgin before seeing this chat in the Umaga thread. From what I can see, and my limited knowledge of how these things go, there's a good chance that any lawsuit he brings against her will primarily act to stop her spreading what he considers to be slanderous comments against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Accident Prone said: There are very popular indies who book Shlak, a man who once said "Fuck nazis, and fuck non-nazis" in regards to people who bring up his past associations with fucking nazis, so I don't think Micheal 'Sex Pest' Elgin is really pushing their morality meter. Yes, Elgin may have suffered an initial dip in bookings when it was all coming out, but he most likely saw that and thought "Fuck it, I'm going all the way in New Japan then" and just fully-committed to their office. For a bloke who laughed about forcing himself and pissing on a woman, I think he's doing fine. But he'll have little chance when it comes to proving any loss of income considering his current position. "So you got more booking oversees for this huge company AFTER the allegations were out in the public eye?" "Yes, your honour." "You supposedly lost bookings, where you performed in front of 100 to 400 people, and you've replaced them with bookings in Japan with a much larger company? A company who regularly hold shows in much bigger venues and with a much bigger profile? AFTER the allegations came out?" "Yes, your honour". Again, not the point. Does not matter if he is working for the biggest company in the world every night, his ability to choose where he works has been affected and that's the point. He should be allowed, when he is not in Japan, to go 'There's a show a couple of hours away. I'll ring the promoter and see if I can get booked. It's a bit of money and I'll be able to sell some merch and drive home and see my family after the gig' or whatever, but he can't because of what has happened. It's about being able to choose - and he can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Snitsky's back acne said: Again, not the point. Does not matter if he is working for the biggest company in the world every night, his ability to choose where he works has been affected and that's the point. He should be allowed, when he is not in Japan, to go 'There's a show a couple of hours away. I'll ring the promoter and see if I can get booked. It's a bit of money and I'll be able to sell some merch and drive home and see my family after the gig' or whatever, but he can't because of what has happened. It's about being able to choose - and he can't. Yeah, that's pretty much it for me as well. Unless he's guilty of what he's accused of, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snitsky's back acne Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just now, David said: Yeah, that's pretty much it for me as well. Unless he's guilty of what he's accused of, of course. He isn't. Even if what is alleged to have happened did it is not a crime so he can't be found guilty of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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