Paid Members tiger_rick Posted September 26, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted September 26, 2015 Exactly. Â A completely organic rise in popularity, stemming from the old classic angle of a popular team splitting up and the need for revenge. Simple, logical stuff and a performer who was rising to the occasion. Â "Nah, fuck that, we've got other plans."Â Â Interesting debate this. WWE get criticised if they have no long term plan. They've also knee-jerked unsuccessfully many times. Like building up Triple H's triuphant return in 2002 only to switch the belt to Hogan a month after he won because he got a couple of decent pops. Â I'm not going to argue against Ambrose because he was red hot and cutting his legs off was even more avoidable and stupid than slightly damaging Reigns last year. But I'm not in favour of abandoning a long-term plan either unless there is a good business reason to do so (like selling 16 tickets for the LA colliseum or something). Â Ambrose wasn't popular by accident, he was pushed big-time alongside the two guys earmarked for the future of the company. Although he wasn't the guy he was always going to be one of them. He appealed to the virgins in the crowd because was the indy guy made good but he also had wider appeal because he was as great as Rollins and Ambrose in the Shield. Best of both worlds. Â He's not a replacement for Cena. He doesn't have the look. But he's a guy you can turn to, heel or face, every time you need a feud for the next ten years. He'll be a great Randy Orton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Ziggler would need a full reset to make it to the top. Long absence, followed by big return with a gimmick over haul. Would a new name be too much to ask for? I don't think I'll ever stop hating his stupid name  Ambrose has been the guy I always saw doing the best out of the shield before they split. The guys just awesome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Changing his name would be worse than keeping it. Ziggler would need a personality transplant as well to get anywhere. He wrestles the way he wants to, he sorts his own gimmicks out -- I can't imagine his Zack Ryder-esque "hi, Internet" wanky trunks in-jokes are WWE's idea, anyway. If he could do a wrestling promo, he'd be perfect for the spot he's currently in. He's a flashy midcard white meat babyface who can do a decent filler match that gets the crowd involved and includes a few highlights, and that's all he's able for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Nah change his name. If he wants to really go for the glam metal thing he could call him self DeeZee Starr. Grow his hair out, stick some make up on him, animal print tights and covered in tassels. That's an instant main eventer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Â Exactly. Â A completely organic rise in popularity, stemming from the old classic angle of a popular team splitting up and the need for revenge. Simple, logical stuff and a performer who was rising to the occasion. Â "Nah, fuck that, we've got other plans."Â Â Interesting debate this. WWE get criticised if they have no long term plan. They've also knee-jerked unsuccessfully many times. Like building up Triple H's triuphant return in 2002 only to switch the belt to Hogan a month after he won because he got a couple of decent pops. Â Â Ambrose wasn't popular by accident, he was pushed big-time alongside the two guys earmarked for the future of the company. Although he wasn't the guy he was always going to be one of them. He appealed to the virgins in the crowd because was the indy guy made good but he also had wider appeal because he was as great as Rollins and Ambrose in the Shield. Best of both worlds. Â Â Â It's a weird situation, and you are right that WWE will have people complaining whatever they do - but it's entirely possible to outline all your long-term plans, but still have the flexibility to alter things a bit if needed. Â Other than Bryan getting the big Mania 30 win instead of the Batista/Orton plan, was the 2002 Hogan title win the last time they decided to switch things up last-minute because of fan reaction? At least at the top of the card, anyway? Â There must be other occasions, but they re not jumping out at me. They've stuck to their guns more often than not over the last few years especially, with mixed results. Â I'm sure I'm in the minority (at least on here) but the Rock/Cena three year Wrestlemania plan was fucking awful for me. Three Mania main events in a row that don't matter in the least! Â You are also dead right that Ambrose got a great, long and sustained push - it was surely no accident and WWE deserve credit. But it was his personality and talent that allowed him to morph seamlessly from a crazy, unpredictable heel to a beloved, loose-cannon babyface. The talent matched the push, so it was a success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undefeated Steak Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Have they managed to create a proper new star since Raw went to three hours? Even the best performers would've found it more difficult to get over in the first place if they were doing it on 3-hour Raws. The next John Cena will need to be something special if he's gonna get to that level in the current climate. At least Orton, Cena and Batista had the likes of Foley, HHH, Shawn Michaels, Flair etc to help get them over. Everybody on the one-hour shows (NXT, Lucha Underground) look like stars (see: Chavo Guerrero) but nobody looks like a star on the 3-hour Raws. It's not the only problem they have, but it doesn't make things any easier for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Kat Von D Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Lucha Underground can make anyone look like a star. No hopers like Chavo and Big Ryck excelled, untapped potential in guys like Mundo and Alberto reached that potential and people I'd never seen like Pentagon Jr and Prince Puma became favourites. Â The formula they had was awesome. No one was over exposed, everyone had direction and they made it exciting. I don't even know if Puma can cut a promo, because they only played to everyone's strengths rather than trying to force people into roles they couldn't do. Â Not everyone can be the next Cena. Reigns, Ambrose, Rollins, Wyatt, Ryback, Cesaro, Owens, Zayn and so forth couldn't fill his role. So why bother? Why not look at the tools they have and let them be their own star with their own qualities? The company doesn't have to be carried by one hero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members tiger_rick Posted September 26, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted September 26, 2015 Have they managed to create a proper new star since Raw went to three hours? Even the best performers would've found it more difficult to get over in the first place if they were doing it on 3-hour Raws. The next John Cena will need to be something special if he's gonna get to that level in the current climate. At least Orton, Cena and Batista had the likes of Foley, HHH, Shawn Michaels, Flair etc to help get them over. Everybody on the one-hour shows (NXT, Lucha Underground) look like stars (see: Chavo Guerrero) but nobody looks like a star on the 3-hour Raws. It's not the only problem they have, but it doesn't make things any easier for them.  Depends how you're defining star. Because Rollins, Ambrose, Reigns and Wyatt are all stars. They can main event anywhere, they're marketable and fans react to them. We wouldn't be debating them in this context if they weren't . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undefeated Steak Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Didn't word it very well there, sorry. I meant someone like Punk, Cena, Batista, or even Jeff Hardy, all of who (I think) were or are far more popular than Rollins, Ambrose etc. My point was just that they're going to find it much more difficult to get somebody over at the very top level when they're having to stretch out a three-hour Raw broadcast each week, whilst somehow keeping everybody relevant and exciting without overexposing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Why is Heyman the only active mouthpiece atm? Cesaro with Heyman for example was a fine idea, but for the obvious obvious FUCKING obvious draw-back. I know Zeb's still technically employed but is there really nobody else around? I would love to see a new managers/mouthpieces boom. Â I love the Heyman/Brock combo as much as anyone but feels like such a waste to have Heyman saying things like "my client" in a face role. Not everybody with a manager has to be this FIGHTING MACHINE, they're put over as 'agents' so put them with the chicken-shit heels, making legal excuses why their guy can't fight tonight. Doesn't have to be permanent/just for guys who can't really talk, just adds a different element. Â Somehow it's easier to imagine them having Hideo Itami do promos every other week on Raw and Smackdown than it is for them to start bringing new managers in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members LaGoosh Posted September 26, 2015 Paid Members Share Posted September 26, 2015 A few years back Tyson Kidd had a different manager on Superstars each week. Matt Striker played a sleazy sports agent and Michael Hayes was an arrogant loud mouth. Both worked fantastic and would have been ace as full time acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 Didn't word it very well there, sorry. I meant someone like Punk, Cena, Batista, or even Jeff Hardy, all of who (I think) were or are far more popular than Rollins, Ambrose etc. My point was just that they're going to find it much more difficult to get somebody over at the very top level when they're having to stretch out a three-hour Raw broadcast each week, whilst somehow keeping everybody relevant and exciting without overexposing them.  They haven't really made a new star since Cena and Batista. Overexposure is definitely a huge issue, for me the main issue with establishing anyone or anything -- it's not a coincidence that the part-timers seem more special. That incredible Undertaker/Lesnar brawl, imagine if it was Cena and Rollins promoting their thirtieth Raw main event. Not even half the gravitas. Similarly, the company does about three TV matches a week now that are trying to be Undertaker vs Michaels at WrestleMania 25 and it doesn't resonate.  It is an interesting conundrum, whether the three Shield guys would be drawing more money now if Raw was an hour shorter. They probably wouldn't be drawing enough money to counteract the lower TV fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallicks Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 The problem is that they expect the next "guy" to just take the ball from Cena and carry on as if nothing had changed. Recent history tells us this does not happen, and that business is going to go down (probably way down) before it comes back up. They're just not ready to give up on Cena, and as long as that stays the same, they're not going to go balls out trying to create the next top babyface. Â I'm not so sure you can just make "the guy" like that anyway. Cena's an aberration. Trying to replicate what they have with him isn't going to work on so many levels, but purely from a longevity standpoint, it's basically impossible. They need to let a few guys have a run with the top belt, see what works and what doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavemanLynn Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Reigns is the next guy - doing little, the guy oozes charisma, and still shots of him clearly show him as a champion. But he needs an overhaul. A change in style to slower paced, explosive matches like Goldberg - he's a tiger, not a Duracell bunny. Change his gear up - the Bossman attire was ace, but this vest thing does nothing for him. Â And he needs to be alone. As long as he's onscreen mates with Ambrose, he'll always have backup, which makes it harder to have him overcome odds as a hero in the inevitable singles bout Mania championship win. Have Ambrose turn on him, have a quick but intense feud, then point him at whoever the champ is. It might be too late in the day, but I think a face vs face main event against a champion Daniel Bryan could make Reigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraxSpago Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Not saying it's Cena's fault as it obviously isn't but worrying about numbers dropping when Cena goes shouldn't be that much of a worry, the ratings are in the toilet anyway  Cena's merch still shifts well I imagine and he's still great for PR but they should just throw a load of shit and see what sticks, now more than ever the brand is the draw so they can fail plenty of times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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