UFC Fight Night: Overeem vs Arlovski - May 8th

[jimufctna24]

At that point Mir was going through his purple patch though, wasn't he? He was breaking arms and KO'ing Croatian high-kick gurus en route to a heavyweight title shot. 

 

Not really. He'd just lost by knockout to Carwin and had been soundly beaten by Brock. He had beaten Cro Cop in the fight prior, but it was a terrible fight, and neither came out of it looking good. He was very considered as a fighter on the decline, or at least one that had his day. During his entrance to the Cro Cop fight, the conversation centred around whether Mir could climb back into contention or not. 

 

It speaks volumes that Mir was able to get Nelson to the mat in the first place. Mir is not a takedown artist, yet he took Nelson down multiple times. While Nelson's gameplan would be clearer against Lesnar, as he could anticipate the takedowns coming, I'm not sure he could stop them. All theoretical of course, and I'm not sure if I would pick Brock myself. 

[David]

 

At that point Mir was going through his purple patch though, wasn't he? He was breaking arms and KO'ing Croatian high-kick gurus en route to a heavyweight title shot. 

 

Not really. He'd just lost by knockout to Carwin and had been soundly beaten by Brock. He had beaten Cro Cop in the fight prior, but it was a terrible fight, and neither came out of it looking good. He was very considered as a fighter on the decline, or at least one that had his day. During his entrance to the Cro Cop fight, the conversation centred around whether Mir could climb back into contention or not. 

 

It speaks volumes that Mir was able to get Nelson to the mat in the first place. Mir is not a takedown artist, yet he took Nelson down multiple times. While Nelson's gameplan would be clearer against Lesnar, as he could anticipate the takedowns coming, I'm not sure he could stop them. All theoretical of course, and I'm not sure if I would pick Brock myself. 

 

 

At that point Mir was on the three-fight tear that resulted in him getting a crack at JDS for the title. He went on to break big Nog's arm in his next fight after beating Nelson, and would face JDS after that for the belt?

[jimufctna24]

While he did break Nog's arm, he was getting lit up on the feet before that. I recall he even got knocked down, which led to the eventual ground exchange. As mentioned, the Cro Cop win was hardly anything to write home about. The Nelson fight didn't get race reviews either. Very few gave him a chance against JDS, and were proven correct when he was polished off fairly handily.

 

Mir's prime was probably 2008-2009. His first win over Nog, and win over Kongo, were the best versions of Mir that I have seen. 

[lambyUK]

 

 

 

I think you're looking back with rose-tinted glasses there Lamby. Lesnar was good, but he lost handily to the two real top talent that he faced, and he lost badly. Both Overeem and Cain fucked him up big time, and would have done so regardless of any health issues he had I believe. Lesnar simply couldn't handle a punch, and he seemed to lose his composure when he got hit hard and often.

 

He basically beat Frank Mir, Heath Herring, Shane Carwin and Randy Couture. All of them decent enough, but not real elite top-level talent. Couture was elite at 205lbs, but we all know a win over Timmeh Sylvia and Gonzaga isn't the sign of an elite heavyweight.

 

Once you move beyond that mid-level talent you get to the real heavy-hitters, which is where Lesnar simply wasn't good enough to compete. Sure, he moved fast, he looked the part, and he could wrestle, but you know as well as most that such a narrow skillset can only get you so far.

 

That "so far" is possibly top five depending on the landscape of the division, but not top three.

 

And before the usual suspects dive in with their defence of the one guy who proved that pro wrasslers are "legit tough", I'm not saying Lesnar was shit. Far from it. He exceeded most expectations considering when he got into the game and the age he was.

 

The problem is, all the instances you've come out with were during the time he had diverticulitis or was still recovering from the disease.

 

Reading into how badly Lesnar had the disease, it sounds like it literally crippled him.  He could barely complete a training camp for his remaining run after his last fight with Mir.

 

Just look at the Overeem fight as a prime example of what became of Lesnar. He could barely move and looked like a slug compared to what he looked like at UFC 100.

 

I think you're actually giving Lesnar a disservice by not truly appreciating what that disease did to him and his body. 

[Egg Shen]

Im never entirely sold on the Diverticulitis thing, there's absolutely no doubting Brock had the disease and it hampered him but all the stuff about Brock only being at a certain % during his fighting career always felt like a story spun by Paul Heyman to expand the Lesnar legacy. Might be wrong but that's how it always seemed to me.

 

 My opinion on Brock will never change, i've always said that if Brock was made to fight on smaller shows and made a slow rise to the UFC he would have come unstuck there too, when things were going his own way he was a beast but he couldn't deal with adversity, there's no getting around that. Bobby Lashley found out the same way in his career. The actual run Lesnar had given the time he was in the sport is pretty amazing when you think about it and it was great to watch but the fast tracking most definitely helped him.

[lambyUK]

Im never entirely sold on the Diverticulitis thing, there's absolutely no doubting Brock had the disease and it hampered him but all the stuff about Brock only being at a certain % during his fighting career always felt like a story spun by Paul Heyman to expand the Lesnar legacy. Might be wrong but that's how it always seemed to me.

 

 My opinion on Brock will never change, i've always said that if Brock was made to fight on smaller shows and made a slow rise to the UFC he would have come unstuck there too, when things were going his own way he was a beast but he couldn't deal with adversity, there's no getting around that. Bobby Lashley found out the same way in his career. The actual run Lesnar had given the time he was in the sport is pretty amazing when you think about it and it was great to watch but the fast tracking most definitely helped him.

 

Jesus. The guy had about 4 foot of his intestine removed.

[David]

 

 

 

 

I think you're looking back with rose-tinted glasses there Lamby. Lesnar was good, but he lost handily to the two real top talent that he faced, and he lost badly. Both Overeem and Cain fucked him up big time, and would have done so regardless of any health issues he had I believe. Lesnar simply couldn't handle a punch, and he seemed to lose his composure when he got hit hard and often.

 

He basically beat Frank Mir, Heath Herring, Shane Carwin and Randy Couture. All of them decent enough, but not real elite top-level talent. Couture was elite at 205lbs, but we all know a win over Timmeh Sylvia and Gonzaga isn't the sign of an elite heavyweight.

 

Once you move beyond that mid-level talent you get to the real heavy-hitters, which is where Lesnar simply wasn't good enough to compete. Sure, he moved fast, he looked the part, and he could wrestle, but you know as well as most that such a narrow skillset can only get you so far.

 

That "so far" is possibly top five depending on the landscape of the division, but not top three.

 

And before the usual suspects dive in with their defence of the one guy who proved that pro wrasslers are "legit tough", I'm not saying Lesnar was shit. Far from it. He exceeded most expectations considering when he got into the game and the age he was.

 

The problem is, all the instances you've come out with were during the time he had diverticulitis or was still recovering from the disease.

 

Reading into how badly Lesnar had the disease, it sounds like it literally crippled him.  He could barely complete a training camp for his remaining run after his last fight with Mir.

 

Just look at the Overeem fight as a prime example of what became of Lesnar. He could barely move and looked like a slug compared to what he looked like at UFC 100.

 

I think you're actually giving Lesnar a disservice by not truly appreciating what that disease did to him and his body. 

 

 

Personally I don't think the results of the Cain or Overeem fights change if Lesnar is 100% free of his medical issues. I just don't think he had the skillset required to compete at that elite heavyweight level.

[ColinBollocks]

Yeah. Lesnar got by on being a freak UFC athlete. His illness seemed to rob him of something towards the end and if you're getting by on mental athleticism coupled with size then it will surely have an impact. His body turned against him.

 

Anyway, I love Lesnar but I think if he made the top 5 consistently I'd call that a huge success for the man. Let's not forget one of the reasons he said he decided against a return was due to him finding out he didn't have it anymore. I think it may have got sad towards the end.

 

I also agree with Rogan that prime Lesnar spending time working hard in a proper gym on basic stand up and what not is the scariest man alive. Looking back, it was so strange seeing how Lesnar panicked whenever somebody waved a hand in front of him.

[Carbomb]

I get the impression that Lesnar is a guy who, having been blessed with prodigious physical gifts from birth, has gotten used to things coming to him relatively easily, without having needed to put in the amount of work and effort that most athletes have to in order to reach an elite level. It's probably why he was able to give up pro-wrestling so easily, decide just like that to go into American football, and then to go into MMA and decide to create his own training "fiefdom", as d-d-daz put it.

 

Obviously, he's had to put effort into his careers, but when you're that size, practically have to just breathe to put on muscle and gain strength, have people falling over themselves to hand you money because of this, and have very few "natural predators" to force you to evolve, it's not altogether unsurprising that he effectively couldn't be bothered to put the work in necessary to become terrifyingly unstoppable.

 

Can you imagine a Lesnar with a Rousey/McGregor/Velasquez/Cormier/GSP work ethic?

[Egg Shen]

 

Im never entirely sold on the Diverticulitis thing, there's absolutely no doubting Brock had the disease and it hampered him but all the stuff about Brock only being at a certain % during his fighting career always felt like a story spun by Paul Heyman to expand the Lesnar legacy. Might be wrong but that's how it always seemed to me.

 

 My opinion on Brock will never change, i've always said that if Brock was made to fight on smaller shows and made a slow rise to the UFC he would have come unstuck there too, when things were going his own way he was a beast but he couldn't deal with adversity, there's no getting around that. Bobby Lashley found out the same way in his career. The actual run Lesnar had given the time he was in the sport is pretty amazing when you think about it and it was great to watch but the fast tracking most definitely helped him.

 

Jesus. The guy had about 4 foot of his intestine removed.

 

he had 12" removed, which is around 1 foot.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't a problem, im just saying that Heyman spun the story to make out that Brock Lesnar probably only ever lost because of the illness. Heyman claims Brock was only at 50% during his UFC run yet he was green-lighted to fight before he'd even had surgery..no doctor is gonna pass him to fight if he was ill of health.

[lambyUK]

I get the impression that Lesnar is a guy who, having been blessed with prodigious physical gifts from birth, has gotten used to things coming to him relatively easily, without having needed to put in the amount of work and effort that most athletes have to in order to reach an elite level. It's probably why he was able to give up pro-wrestling so easily, decide just like that to go into American football, and then to go into MMA and decide to create his own training "fiefdom", as d-d-daz put it.

 

Obviously, he's had to put effort into his careers, but when you're that size, practically have to just breathe to put on muscle and gain strength, have people falling over themselves to hand you money because of this, and have very few "natural predators" to force you to evolve, it's not altogether unsurprising that he effectively couldn't be bothered to put the work in necessary to become terrifyingly unstoppable.

 

Can you imagine a Lesnar with a Rousey/McGregor/Velasquez/Cormier/GSP work ethic?

 

Come on Carbomb, are you seriously stating that Lesnar, a kid who grew up on a farm of all places, got used to things coming to him easily? I'm not sure if you've seen pictures of him when he was younger, but he certainly had to work hard beyond belief to get in the shape that he became. 

 

On top of that, the guy was a freak in amateur wrestling. I'm copying this list from wiki:-

 

Lesnar won the 2000 National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Division I heavyweight wrestling championship his senior year after being the runner-up the year prior. Lesnar finished his amateur career as a two-time NJCAA All-American, the 1998 NJCAA Heavyweight Champion, two-time NCAA All-American, two-time Big Ten Conference Champion, and the 2000 NCAA Heavyweight Champion, with a record of 106–5 overall in four years of college.

 

A record of 106-5?? That's unreal. To achieve that someone can't simply rely on the physical gifts they've got. Serious work has to go into a craft in order to achieve what he did. 

[lambyUK]

 

 

Im never entirely sold on the Diverticulitis thing, there's absolutely no doubting Brock had the disease and it hampered him but all the stuff about Brock only being at a certain % during his fighting career always felt like a story spun by Paul Heyman to expand the Lesnar legacy. Might be wrong but that's how it always seemed to me.

 

 My opinion on Brock will never change, i've always said that if Brock was made to fight on smaller shows and made a slow rise to the UFC he would have come unstuck there too, when things were going his own way he was a beast but he couldn't deal with adversity, there's no getting around that. Bobby Lashley found out the same way in his career. The actual run Lesnar had given the time he was in the sport is pretty amazing when you think about it and it was great to watch but the fast tracking most definitely helped him.

 

Jesus. The guy had about 4 foot of his intestine removed.

 

he had 12" removed, which is around 1 foot.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't a problem, im just saying that Heyman spun the story to make out that Brock Lesnar probably only ever lost because of the illness. Heyman claims Brock was only at 50% during his UFC run yet he was green-lighted to fight before he'd even had surgery..no doctor is gonna pass him to fight if he was ill of health.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, what have you seen to actually make you believe that what Heyman was saying wasn't true?

 

Personally, I never once saw Heyman talking during Brock's UFC run. All I'm going by is what came from Lesnar's mouth during his interviews on UFC programming at the time, and Dana's prognosis of what Lesnar was going through. I never heard Heyman 'spin' anything and he was never featured on UFC programming, at least what i saw. I don't actually watch pro wrestling anymore either.

 

Edit:- to quote a blurb from wiki again, 

 

On November 4, it was confirmed that Lesnar was suffering from mononucleosis and that his bout with Carwin would have to wait a bit longer and the fight for Lesnar's heavyweight championship was cancelled.On November 14, at the UFC 105 post-fight conference, Dana White stated, "[Lesnar]'s not well and he's not going to be getting well anytime soon" and that an interim title match might need to be set up. In addition to mononucleosis, it was revealed that he was suffering from a serious case of diverticulitis, an intestinal disorder, which required surgery. After further diagnosis, Lesnar underwent surgery on November 16 to close a perforation in his intestine that had been leaking fecal matter into his abdomen, causing pain, abscesses, and overtaxing his immune system to the point that he contracted mononucleosis. From the level of damage to Lesnar's system, the surgeon estimated that the intestinal condition had been ongoing for around a year.

 

 

Personally I only paid attention to what was reported when the above came about. I'd like to believe what his doctor's were saying was true. Fecal matter leaking into his abdomen sounds horrendous, and having it for a year no less. 

[Egg Shen]

here's some Heyman quotes...

 

"Brock Lesnar entered the Octagon against these people, Shane Carwin, even against Randy Couture, against Frank Mir, against Alistair Overeem, against Cain Velasquez at far less than 100 percent. Anything you saw him do, he did as an unhealthy man competing at the very top level on the face of the planet. Imagine what he could have done if he was 100-percent healthy."

 

"If Brock Lesnar ever fought healthy in the UFC, I don't see any fighter that could have touched him,"

 

"I don't think Brock has truly understood nor accepted the severity of the illness that took him down. They did blood work on Brock and they found out he wasn't healthy for many, many years. His body was fighting this affliction off and using so much of his energy."

 

"He was handicapped the entire time. His body is so freakish, he was fighting this thing off and he had enough energy to do those other things while sick. The Brock Lesnar who stepped into the cage with Alistair Overeem, he was at 50, 75 percent. You're going to fight Alistair Overeem at 75 percent, Cain Velasquez at 75 percent. He fought Shane Carwin at 75, or 60, or 80 percent, but even at 95 percent against Shane Carwin, you're at a disadvantage."

 

again, im not saying it isn't true, but coming from a PR guy like Heyman it just makes me sceptical.

[lambyUK]

I think I'll stick with what Dana and the doctors said. Heyman maybe a PR guy, but I tend to believe him when he had doctors and the other UFC figures supporting his argument. 

[Egg Shen]

The doctors cleared him to fight. They don't clear someone who's only at 50% health.