UFC 162: 'Silva vs Weidman'

[David]

But just because you don't deem him capable doesn't make his win any less valid. And anyway, he clearly was capable...

I never said his win wasn't valid. The records will show that he won by KO in the 2nd frame, which is fair enough. As for him being capable, I don't really think he showed that during the fight. He caught a man with his hands by his sides and his chin out. You don't have to be capable to do that.

 

If it's simply a case of Anderson danced his way into a KO and Weidman is simply lucky to have caught him, why couldn't Bonnar or Griffin or Maia or Leites or Cote do anything when he jived around them?

If it was a case of luck then surely Weidman was simply lucky enough to catch Anderson when the others weren't? Someone was going to catch him at some point if he kept doing that, it's the simple law of averages, isn't it?

 

Again, I wasn't impressed by Weidman, and I have pretty much no doubt in my mind that Anderson beats him clean within two frames if he takes him seriously next time.

 

But again, Weidman knocked him out. You can't say he had nothing for him when he won round 1 and sparked him in round 2, when so many others couldn't.

C'mon Wand, you know it's not as simple as "he knocked him out". If he had put him away during a spell of ground & pound then fair enough, but he didn't.

 

Weidman won that fight because of what Anderson did. He didn't "win" the fight in my eyes, and as such there'll always be a bit of doubt over him as champion. I'd go as far as saying that he needs this rematch more than Anderson does, simply to make his title run legitimate.

 

It has to be partly down to Weidman as well. If Anderson was doing his body popping around me and calling me a 'playboy' or 'rich boy' or whatever he throws around as an insult, 1) he'd be wrong, I'm skint and 2) I wouldn't be able to a damn thing about it. Weidman was equipped to make him pay. You can't take all the credit away from him.

I don't take all the credit away from him. I give him the credit of making it into round 2 and the credit of landing what was basically a lucky punch.

 

And he may have looked like he had the measure of Weidman, I don't necessarily agree with that though, based off him simply stuffing one takedown and landing a few kicks. Just because he got the better of a couple of exchanges doesn't mean Weidman was fucked. Gray Maynard looked like he had the measure of Frankie Edgar in their second and third fights, and it was much more decisive than what Anderson was landing on Weidman, yet look how those fights ended up. Pat Barry looked to have the measure of Kongo, Sapp had the measure of Nog, it can't always be one way traffic.

I know you're not dumb enough to compare any of those situations to Anderson Silva. When Anderson has the measure of you, he ends up with his hand raised 99.99% of the time. This bout was little more than a freak result in my mind.

 

Does Weidman have to win without taking so much as a jab next time for people to accept that he's actually quite good?

No, if Weidman wins next time against a focused and serious Anderson Silva then he'll have my respect. I have never said that he wasn't good, I just said that I saw nothing in that fight that suggests to me that he's a guy who can make lightning strike twice. That fight was a freak of nature. It was Mike Tyson being beaten by Buster Douglas, Lennox Lewis losing to Rahman etc.

 

So yeah, Anderson could well come out and destroy Weidman next time. But I really hate the way people have to latch on to something like Anderson's showboating, which is a valid criticism, but they go nuts and completely take away all the credit from Weidman.

Sorry mate, people are going to think that. Weidman was fighting a guy who was in showboat mode. When that particular fighter is considered the GOAT you're going to have people thinking that way.

 

If Anderson pissed about and then toe poked Weidman out cold, everyone would be going 'man, Anderson's a ninja, he kicked Weidman's face off whilst doing the moonwalk, he's not human, he's Neo' etc etc. But because it finally backfires, suddenly it's 100% the reason he lost. I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, I'm just saying it wasn't the only factor.

 

Like I said, the loss is surely a combination of Weidman being good AND Anderson's poor choices. It doesn't have to be 100% one or the other.

Weidman was decent at best mate. He had Anderson down in the first and done pretty much nothing of note, then spent a fair chunk of the 2nd frame swinging at air. He was lucky that he connected with a shot when Silva's hands were down, his chin was up and he was off balance.

 

Again, I saw virtually nothing to suggest that an Anderson with his head on straight won't put this guy away within 2 frames. I can see this fight getting a similar build to Sonnen/Silva II only for the anticipation to fall flat when Anderson fucks him up without much trouble.

[Gooner]

I'm glad to hear there is a rematch, Anderson has to win this fight in proper form before meeting Jones in the future. I can't see Silva messsing up like this again, he cost himself and it seems like he has realised this by taking this fight so quickly.

[hbk4life]

I agree with pretty much everything David has said.

 

I agree that Silva was in a way winning the fight at the time of the knockout. Not in terms of rounds, Weidman clearly won the first round, but I believe Silva was in control of the fight. He'd got up from the ground, stuffed the next take down attempt with ease, had Weidman swinging at air and looking a bit gassed. If he had stopped fucking around a little earlier and gone for the kill then I think he'd have got the finish.

 

It's hard to say much about it without taking away from Weidman, but it does feel a lot like Silva gave him the title. Full credit to him for taking it and doing what many others couldn't by landing clean and knocking Silva out.

 

I'll go for Silva to win the rematch by TKO late in the first or early in the second round. I'm really happy we are getting the rematch straight away, hopefully a lot of the questions about the first fight will be answered.

[David]

It's hard to say much about it without taking away from Weidman, but it does feel a lot like Silva gave him the title.

This is exactly it in my opinion. Again, I think that Weidman needs this rematch more than Silva does. For him to continue as a credible champions he has to erase the thought that he's only wearing the strap because Anderson didn't take him seriously at all.

[Egg Shen]

I agree that Silva was in a way winning the fight at the time of the knockout. Not in terms of rounds, Weidman clearly won the first round, but I believe Silva was in control of the fight. He'd got up from the ground, stuffed the next take down attempt with ease, had Weidman swinging at air and looking a bit gassed. If he had stopped fucking around a little earlier and gone for the kill then I think he'd have got the finish.

my problem with that is whilst Anderson appeared to be in control, was he really? all he did was dance around, laugh and show total direspect for Weidman. Like i said, if Weidman hadn't actually have cleaned his clock the fight might very well have ended up being a laughing stock like the Maia/Leites fights, Anderson didn't seem to have any real intention of going in for the kill, rather avoid Weidman's strength's and throw the odd pot shot.

[Gooner]

Silva made a big mistake in first fight and got caught. I don't think he should ever have taken the fight in first place as its a lose, lose situation for him. I'm expecting him to win the rematch in devastating fashion and hopefully go on to face Jones next year at 205lbs.

[David]

my problem with that is whilst Anderson appeared to be in control, was he really? all he did was dance around, laugh and show total direspect for Weidman.

You don't think he was in total control of the Maia and Leites fights?

 

Although it should be taken with a pinch of salt, recent words from Anderson suggest he won't be ditching the showboating style;

 

[Egg Shen]

he was in control no doubt, but only because he befuddled his opponents by dancing around like an idiot/hiding behind the ref etc. the Maia fight especially could hardly be called a fight. Both fights were embarrasing.

[wandshogun09]

He caught a man with his hands by his sides and his chin out. You don't have to be capable to do that.

 

You clearly do when it's Anderson Silva or this would have happened before wouldn't it. And again, Anderson often has his hands down, it's the way he fights mostly. It's not like it was out of character.

 

If someone known for their defence like Floyd Mayweather came out with his hands down and got whacked out by Canelo I could see this argument. But this is what Anderson does. You think it's a case of him just keeping his hands up and that's it? You think Anderson didn't know you're supposed to keep your hands up? He probably kept his hands low in this fight more because he was anticipating the takedown attempt more than anything else, and that's how Weidman caught him. That's how Cain nearly KOd JDS as well. If he comes out 'all business' next time, hands up/chin down and attacking more, he's still got the BJJ, wrestling AND stand up of Weidman to deal with, he's got more to think about than just 'hmmm maybe this time I hemember to keepy my hand up'.

 

People can say that KO wouldn't have happened if Anderson fought differently, they might be right. But to me that's like saying 'that punch wouldn't have landed if he'd blocked it' or 'that would have been a goal if that goalie didn't save it'. Anderson made an error and Weidman capitalised where many others couldn't.

 

C'mon Wand, you know it's not as simple as "he knocked him out". If he had put him away during a spell of ground & pound then fair enough, but he didn't.

 

Weidman won that fight because of what Anderson did. He didn't "win" the fight in my eyes, and as such there'll always be a bit of doubt over him as champion.

 

Why does he have to stop him with ground and pound for it to be deemed a legitimate win? If that happened we'd still be hearing 'well Weidman only got the takedown because Anderson was doing the robot, those punches and elbows would have never landed if Anderson meant business. He'll murderize him next time.'

 

Let's face it, whatever he did we'd be having this debate. I get why to a degree, Anderson is that good you almost feel there has to be an excuse, but let's not go mad. All I'm saying is it's not 100% down to Anderson's antics why he lost.

 

Like Ebb said, it wasn't as if Anderson was bossing the fight at the time of the KO. If he was putting a beating on Weidman, then started pissing about and got knocked out then fair enough. But what did he do exactly that showed such dominance or control like people are making out? He stuffed one shot and landed a few body kicks. Hardly GSP-Diaz was it.

 

And I've said before, 'lucky punch' is a bollocks term. It's not like it's an accident. You throw a punch, you intend to land that punch, the punch lands, opponent falls. Where's the luck? That's the aim isn't it?

 

I'd go as far as saying that he needs this rematch more than Anderson does, simply to make his title run legitimate.

 

This I agree with completely. Beating someone like Anderson, you're probably always going to have to do it twice to prove it really wasn't a one off freak result. Frankie Edgar had the same thing with BJ Penn.

 

Anderson could retire now and he'd still go down as a legend, his accomplishments speak for themselves. For Weidman, a second win over Anderson, erasing all doubt, would do way more for his credibility than a win over a Belfort, Okami or Bisping would at this point. So yeah, I'd say he needs this rematch more than Anderson does.

 

I know you're not dumb enough to compare any of those situations to Anderson Silva. When Anderson has the measure of you, he ends up with his hand raised 99.99% of the time.

 

I'm not comparing them in that sense, just saying that just because a fight is going in one direction doesn't mean the momentum can't change. I agree that in Anderson's case, usually if he has you in trouble you're done, but I don't agree that he really had Weidman in a great deal of trouble. I think Weidman's cardio/adrenaline dump was probably bothering him more than Anderson's handful of kicks. Not saying Anderson couldn't have turned it on and done some damage but he really hadn't at that point.

 

Weidman was decent at best mate. He had Anderson down in the first and done pretty much nothing of note

 

So taking him down, passing guard, landing some pretty good punches, going for submissions - that equals nothing of note, but Anderson's performance in round 2 showed you he was in control despite doing almost fuck all bar apparently auditioning for Brucie's next dancing show?

 

Weidman won round 1 against Anderson Silva. That used to be a big deal considering he barely ever loses a round, but its nothing of note? You can blame it on whatever you like but that round wasn't Anderson dicking about was it?

 

You don't think he was in total control of the Maia and Leites fights?

 

The difference with those fights was that as well as arsing about, Anderson was actually doing damage. Remember the state of Maia's face after the fight? I'm still yet to really see where people are getting this 'Anderson was in total control before he got decked' stuff.

 

To flip it around, if Anderson was in control in round 2, maybe that's just because Weidman was gassing. That's the only reason Anderson stuffed that takedown. It wasn't because Anderson is good, it's 100% because Weidman didn't put enough miles in on the treadmill. If gassed Weidman KOd Silva, just wait until he 'takes it serious' and gets in shape.

 

 

We're never going to fully agree on this. I'll just say, I actually hope you're right David. I was gutted when Anderson lost and I'd love to see him get the belt back in December.

[Egg Shen]

latest Weidman quote:

 

"You have no idea what is going to happen when you get into the Octagon. If you have any insecurities at all, [Anderson Silva] will expose that -- he's going to bring them out and make you pay. He'll put his hands down, he'll put his hands on his hips, he'll talk and make you feel like you don't belong in the Octagon with him. I knew what he was doing. I just had to remain mentally strong and confident. And that's what I did. I was prepared [for the clowning], but I did react. I was like, 'How dare you, you're doing this to me?' Are you joking? I had that attitude. I'm like, 'You're not even hitting me -- you're taunting and taunting. Hit me in the face, I don't care!' That was my attitude, but then it got to the point where I'm throwing punches until I land and crack him. And that's how I finished the fight."

[dopper]

Anderson didn't seem to have any real intention of going in for the kill, rather avoid Weidman's strength's and throw the odd pot shot.

 

I put that down as being part of a very sensible gameplan, one that we have seen many times before from Silva.

 

Weidman has rarely got as far as the third round, obviously never to the fourth & fifth. Add to that the fact Silva usually takes the first two rounds to hang back and see what his opponent is trying to do rather than doing much offensively himself.

 

The showboating and silliness was obviously turned up to eleven in this fight, way more than it should have been. But besides that I thought it was Anderson using his usual techniques that early in a fight.

 

I can't wait for the rematch because we have no idea how Silva is going to approach it. How weird would it be after all these years to see him steaming in with constant pressure and big shots in the first round?!

[jimufctna24]

This talk about Weidman's cardio is interesting, because it may just be that he has a short gas tank and his training is not a factor. For every BJ Penn who did get lazy there are other fighters, who despite putting insane hours in on the treadmill never develop high level cardio. Some people are just designed to last longer than others, take Cain for example he pushes a pace over a prolonged time that some welterweights would struggle with.

 

Weidman's wrestling/grappling will always be a threat, and Anderson may have to weather a early storm next time. But as the below article argues, Anderson's takedown defense is actually quite good. So, that stuffed takedown in the second round may not have just been Weidman tiring and not fully committing.

 

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/6/27/44684...onnen-henderson

 

It will not be as simple as "keep the fight standing and get the knockout" for Anderson but I still favor Silva in a striking battle. Anderson just has more weapons and is much more fluent and classy operator with his striking than Weidman. Weidman strikes like you would expect a American wrestler to do (reliant mainly on basic boxing, with a few advanced combos thrown in there to mix things up) not much in the way of movement and a bit stiff at times.

[wandshogun09]

On the subject of cardio, I was watching UFC 104 last night, which was the card with the Machida vs Shogun 1 headliner.

 

Anyway, at the top of the show, Rogan was doing his opening the PPV bit and talking up the main event and he said something very interesting. Apparently Shogun of all people, usually not someone you'd associate with cardio, had the lowest resting heart rate of all the fighters on the card when they went through the medicals. As Rogan put it, it was "marathon runner stuff". It surprised me because Shogun gasses quite regularly doesn't he. And 'Cardio Cain' was on that card as well.

 

It's a funny one, cardio. You're right, I don't think it's always simply a case of a fighter being lazy/work-shy if they gas. Many factors go into conditioning from injuries to nutrition to adrenaline dumps, and in Shogun's case, I think a lot of it is his style. If you look at his physique it's clear he's not in the best of shape these days, but that berserker style would gas most guys out. Hendo is similar. They throw 100% into everything to the point they're spent quicker than they probably should be.

[jimufctna24]

Anyway, at the top of the show, Rogan was doing his opening the PPV bit and talking up the main event and he said something very interesting. Apparently Shogun of all people, usually not someone you'd associate with cardio, had the lowest resting heart rate of all the fighters on the card when they went through the medicals. As Rogan put it, it was "marathon runner stuff". It surprised me because Shogun gasses quite regularly doesn't he.

I think Shogun slows down due to injuries, its his fragile body that slows him down not his breathing or heart rate if that makes any sense.

 

For example, his knee can only take say a few round before it becomes a hindrance and slows the rest of his body down.

[David]

We're never going to fully agree on this. I'll just say, I actually hope you're right David. I was gutted when Anderson lost and I'd love to see him get the belt back in December.

This shit has split opinion in the MMA community like I've never seen before. It's brilliant! I agree though, we should save some of our points for the Silva/Weidman II thread!