UFC 162: 'Silva vs Weidman'

[wandshogun09]

That's my point though, can he fight aggressively against guys who can realistically outgrapple him? I don't doubt he can physically, but is it a mental block with him? The Sonnen fights were the only time really where we've seen him really go for broke on the feet against a wrestler. Okami doesn't count because he forgot he was a wrestler and offered no threat to Anderson.

 

Clinches and knees aren't the answer I don't think. That's a bad idea against a guy who's looking to take you down. You're doing the opposite of what you should do surely, by clinching up with a grappler instead of creating distance to land strikes. Then by throwing knees in that position, leaving yourself on one foot as you knee, the opponent can time it and take you down. You're basically inviting the takedown if you Thai clinch a good wrestler and you're doing half the work for them because you're letting them grab a hold of you.

 

Of course he's no reckless brawler, I wouldn't expect him to go that route. If he's going to KO Weidman, it's probably going to have to be similar to the second Sonnen fight. Staying patient, keeping separation to avoid the clinch/takedown and picking his shots. Easier said than done though.

 

I'm not outright declaring Weidman the better fighter. It's Anderson Silva after all! But good fighters beat great fighters often. I still refuse to rate Frank Mir as a better overall fighter than Big Nog, I still rate Penn as more skilled than Edgar as well. But you can't argue with results and more factors than just skill go into winning fights at the top level. Conditioning, injuries, strategy, heart. Anderson is still the GOAT in MMA by quite a stretch for me. But I really think Weidman deserves his due as well.

 

I rewatched the fight again in the week and to be honest, more than Anderson's pissing about, I'd say Weidman's bigger issue might in fact be cardio. That might be the chink in his armour. He looked pretty winded after one round. If Anderson had kept his head a bit better and it went past the third, who knows how it would have turned out. It might have looked worse to me than it actually was, maybe his cardio was fine, but he didn't look as explosive to me in the second. The KO might have came at the perfect time if he was heading for Gassedville.

[jimufctna24]

That's my point though, can he fight aggressively against guys who can realistically outgrapple him? I don't doubt he can physically, but is it a mental block with him? The Sonnen fights were the only time really where we've seen him really go for broke on the feet against a wrestler. Okami doesn't count because he forgot he was a wrestler and offered no threat to Anderson.

 

Clinches and knees aren't the answer I don't think. That's a bad idea against a guy who's looking to take you down. You're doing the opposite of what you should do surely, by clinching up with a grappler instead of creating distance to land strikes. Then by throwing knees in that position, leaving yourself on one foot as you knee, the opponent can time it and take you down. You're basically inviting the takedown if you Thai clinch a good wrestler and you're doing half the work for them because you're letting them grab a hold of you.

I say yes

 

Not just Sonnen, he also polished of Hendo as well with some aggressive counter strikes. Franklin is no slouch as a wrestler either. Anderson as shown with Hendo and Sonnen make fighters rush there work and get drawn into aggressive striking exchanges which he wins fights with. Also, Okami was trying to control Anderson in that fight, but it does not count as Anderson picked him apart with smart counters from range, he did not win aggressively.

 

I was just accessing Anderson aggressive striking by adding it has technique to it, some like Wanderlai have a lot of technique and skill to their brawling style whilst others do not.

 

The clinch game is a odd one, because he had a knee right there for the taking with Weidman, maybe he was tentative due to Weidman's ground game. Its a sensitive debate because no one wants to take away what Weidman achieved (me being of that vein)

[David]

David, if you really believe that Anderson was winning the fight before he got too cocky then I despair. Even though you're completely wrong, all the stats also suggest you're wrong as well.

I think he means when Anderson chose to engage he got the better of Weidman, instead of clowning around.

 

I do not speak for him, but he seems to think Anderson lost the fight more than Weidman won it, and Anderson had full control of the result dependent how he chose to fight.

Pretty much Jim. I felt that at any time Anderson could have cranked up the pressure and taken Weidman out of there.

[wandshogun09]

Jim, you got me on Hendo. I should have remembered that because I watched it again just a few weeks ago. Incidentally, if anyone wants proof on how granite Hendo's face is, watch that fight. I didn't remember it but Anderson cracked him with that front kick he killed Vitor with. He caught him clean and Hendo reacted as if a ladybird landed on him. He's fucking solid.

[lambyUK]

David, if you really believe that Anderson was winning the fight before he got too cocky then I despair. Even though you're completely wrong, all the stats also suggest you're wrong as well.

I think he means when Anderson chose to engage he got the better of Weidman, instead of clowning around.

 

I do not speak for him, but he seems to think Anderson lost the fight more than Weidman won it, and Anderson had full control of the result dependent how he chose to fight.

Pretty much Jim. I felt that at any time Anderson could have cranked up the pressure and taken Weidman out of there.

 

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean Anderson was winning fight.

[jimufctna24]

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean Anderson was winning fight.

Sorry to harass Lamby, but both you and David are right in a way. You have the stats and scorecards on your side, whilst David has his perception of how the fight was going.

 

Weidman was ahead on points 1-0 and by volume of strikes landed, but Anderson seemingly until the combo had the fight where he wanted it, others on here who watched it back have stated Weidman was gassing and Anderson was playing with him. Anderson also stuffed a Weidman takedown with relative ease which was a huge eye opener.

 

You could argue the momentum and control of the fight was in Anderson corner, but he got too cocky and pissed it all way. That sounds like a knock on Weidman skills, but as I pointed out a few times above I have great admiration for the technique and skill Weidman used to land that knockout blow.

 

I have to say, I thought Anderson had it well in hand and was about to pounce with something before he got caught.

[wandshogun09]

I have to say, I thought Anderson had it well in hand and was about to pounce with something before he got caught.

 

The thing is though, how much of that is just down to the aura Anderson's built up? Was he really just about to pounce or is it a case of us seeing him do that so many times that when it goes wrong we can't get our heads around it? Does that make sense?

 

Really, we could all go around in circles for months on this and none of us would be wrong but none of us have the definitive answer. It's why the rematch is so fucking intriguing. The right answer on what went down on July 6th is surely a combination of bits of what both sides of the debate have been saying. It's not one thing alone. Anderson's showboating did play a part in his downfall AND Weidman did perform well and did what no-one else has been able to do before. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

The good sign if you're an Anderson Silva fan is how he's responded in the days following the loss. He went from originally saying he didn't want a rematch to saying "I back. Trust me, I back" a few days later.

[jimufctna24]

The thing is though, how much of that is just down to the aura Anderson's built up? Was he really just about to pounce or is it a case of us seeing him do that so many times that when it goes wrong we can't get our heads around it? Does that make sense?

 

Really, we could all go around in circles for months on this and none of us would be wrong but none of us have the definitive answer. It's why the rematch is so fucking intriguing. The right answer on what went down on July 6th is surely a combination of bits of what both sides of the debate have been saying. It's not one thing alone. Anderson's showboating did play a part in his downfall AND Weidman did perform well and did what no-one else has been able to do before. The two aren't mutually exclusive. It's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Yes, and I understand that the counter argument will be that Anderson's tactics failed on him, and Weidman simply had the better game.

 

The second paragraph pretty much sums it up, really we can only speculate on what was going on in the heads on the fighters on July 6th. It really is all perception

[Egg Shen]

the gassing issue is relevant, going into round 2 i genuinely thought Anderson was taking over and Weidman was looking a little flat, could put that down to one of these so called adrenaline dumps though, Weidman was in the biggest fight of his life, and no matter how confident he was he had to be nervous. If cardio was a problem, at least he's in a position now to go back and fix it. Maybe we're reading into it too much though, wrestlers don't tend to gas easily.

 

So many factor's going into the rematch, it's gonna be insane.

[David]

Weidman was ahead on points 1-0 and by volume of strikes landed, but Anderson seemingly until the combo had the fight where he wanted it, others on here who watched it back have stated Weidman was gassing and Anderson was playing with him. Anderson also stuffed a Weidman takedown with relative ease which was a huge eye opener.

I'm not entirely sure why, but Anderson seems to have a habit of throwing away the first round of fights on a regular basis. He did it with Sonnen in their rematch as well, before coming back in the 2nd.

 

I honestly believe that the fight was heading for a finish not unlike the 2nd Sonnen bout as well had Anderson not got caught being a numpty. Weidman for me looked as though he was fresh out of ideas after his takedown was easily stuffed, and it seemed to be pretty much business as usual.

 

You could argue the momentum and control of the fight was in Anderson corner, but he got too cocky and pissed it all way. That sounds like a knock on Weidman skills, but as I pointed out a few times above I have great admiration for the technique and skill Weidman used to land that knockout blow.

You have great admiration for the technique and skill Weidman used to clip a guy with his hands by his side and his chin in the air? Fair enough, but I'll have to disagree. Look back at the amount of fresh air Weidman was hitting before he managed to connect.

 

I went into the bout buying into the talk of Weidman being a machine and suchlike, and was pretty disappointed to be honest. His takedowns weren't up to much really, and when he did get Anderson down he didn't do too much there either. He certainly won the 1st round, but as I said, Anderson has a habit of throwing them away for some reason.

 

In the 2nd he looked a bit like a rabbit in the headlights after Silva stuffed that takedown, and he started coming forward like a lot of Silva's opponents do when they run short on ideas. The only difference on this occasion is that Anderson got caught whilst mugging it up for the crowd.

 

I don't think he'll do that again, and depending how Weidman behaves in the build-up to the rematch it'll only be a matter of how much Anderson plays around before stopping him. He's coming in with a point to prove I feel, and perhaps an opponent who could piss him off.

 

We all saw how that ended for Chael in their return bout, didn't we? This rematch will go the same way I believe.

[lambyUK]

From the sounds of your argument David, Anderson simply has to turn up to his fights to win them. In fact screw it, we'll just have Silva sit on his corner seat and have the judges give him each round on their score cards without him doing anything. I mean what's the point in Anderson fighting at all from your point of view?

 

Seems Silva wobbling around like a bafoon is enough in your eyes to make you believe this guy is in control of his fights.

[jimufctna24]

You have great admiration for the technique and skill Weidman used to clip a guy with his hands by his side and his chin in the air? Fair enough, but I'll have to disagree. Look back at the amount of fresh air Weidman was hitting before he managed to connect.

There was thought and technique to that fight ending combo if you look back. A flicker jab made Anderson move his head into a position where Weidman could land flush with a left hook, it was not like he was swinging blindly.

 

I agree with what you are saying in many ways, but lets not go too far.

[David]

From the sounds of your argument David, Anderson simply has to turn up to his fights to win them. In fact screw it, we'll just have Silva sit on his corner seat and have the judges give him each round on their score cards without him doing anything. I mean what's the point in Anderson fighting at all from your point of view?

 

Seems Silva wobbling around like a bafoon is enough in your eyes to make you believe this guy is in control of his fights.

Not at all, there are three fighters in the UFC who I deem capable of giving Anderson a decent contest. Weidman isn't one of them. I wasn't impressed by his theatrics, but when he was hitting Weidman with kicks and stopping his takedown he looked like a fighter who had the measure of his opponent. I don't think Weidman had anything for him, much like I don't think Sonnen did either.

 

That fight was lost by Anderson more than it was won by Weidman in my opinion.

[wandshogun09]

Not at all, there are three fighters in the UFC who I deem capable of giving Anderson a decent contest. Weidman isn't one of them.

 

But just because you don't deem him capable doesn't make his win any less valid. And anyway, he clearly was capable...

 

 

 

And a decent contest? He knocked him out. If it's simply a case of Anderson danced his way into a KO and Weidman is simply lucky to have caught him, why couldn't Bonnar or Griffin or Maia or Leites or Cote do anything when he jived around them?

 

I wasn't impressed by his theatrics, but when he was hitting Weidman with kicks and stopping his takedown he looked like a fighter who had the measure of his opponent. I don't think Weidman had anything for him, much like I don't think Sonnen did either.

 

But again, Weidman knocked him out. You can't say he had nothing for him when he won round 1 and sparked him in round 2, when so many others couldn't. It has to be partly down to Weidman as well. If Anderson was doing his body popping around me and calling me a 'playboy' or 'rich boy' or whatever he throws around as an insult, 1) he'd be wrong, I'm skint and 2) I wouldn't be able to a damn thing about it. Weidman was equipped to make him pay. You can't take all the credit away from him.

 

And he may have looked like he had the measure of Weidman, I don't necessarily agree with that though, based off him simply stuffing one takedown and landing a few kicks. Just because he got the better of a couple of exchanges doesn't mean Weidman was fucked. Gray Maynard looked like he had the measure of Frankie Edgar in their second and third fights, and it was much more decisive than what Anderson was landing on Weidman, yet look how those fights ended up. Pat Barry looked to have the measure of Kongo, Sapp had the measure of Nog, it can't always be one way traffic.

 

Does Weidman have to win without taking so much as a jab next time for people to accept that he's actually quite good?

 

That fight was lost by Anderson more than it was won by Weidman in my opinion.

 

That's fair enough. I can certainly see reasons to think the fight was swinging in Anderson's favour after the first round ended. Weidman looked winded and Anderson stuffed a takedown and got his first real offence in. I said before, that Weidman landing the KO shot when he did might have been a blessing in disguise if he really was gassing. Even Renzo Gracie said Weidman was fading and you'd think he wouldn't say that publicly with his links to Weidman through Matt Serra. He has no reason to say that if it wasn't true.

 

So yeah, Anderson could well come out and destroy Weidman next time. But I really hate the way people have to latch on to something like Anderson's showboating, which is a valid criticism, but they go nuts and completely take away all the credit from Weidman. If Anderson pissed about and then toe poked Weidman out cold, everyone would be going 'man, Anderson's a ninja, he kicked Weidman's face off whilst doing the moonwalk, he's not human, he's Neo' etc etc. But because it finally backfires, suddenly it's 100% the reason he lost. I'm not saying it wasn't a factor, I'm just saying it wasn't the only factor.

 

Like I said, the loss is surely a combination of Weidman being good AND Anderson's poor choices. It doesn't have to be 100% one or the other.

[jimufctna24]

I really want the rematch to come now. As I fear the first fight is going to warrant a 6 month circular debate! I really hope the rematch answers most of the questions. I cannot remember a fight so hotly debated and it only last 7 minutes or so.

 

If Anderson was doing his body popping around me and calling me a 'playboy' or 'rich boy' or whatever he throws around as an insult, 1) he'd be wrong, I'm skint and 2) I wouldn't be able to a damn thing about it.

The "Brummie Playboy"

 

I like the sound of it