UFC 158: 'St Pierre vs Diaz'

[deathrey]

It was a tricky one, I can see why it was scored as a Hendricks win from the judges point of view, but I feel Condit was the better of the two and won the fight purely from the point of view that he beat up Hendricks more than Hendricks beat him up.

 

GSP vs Diaz was just more of everything that I dislike about GSP, I know technically he's a great fighter but I just find him so boring, I really feel he lacks the killer instinct and just doesn't finish. I know Diaz was tricky, and squirmed a lot when he was taken down, and did everything he could to get out, but GSP didn't even seem to try to finish him, I could go on and on about this so I'll shut up but damn, he's boring.

[jimufctna24]

To be honest, I disagree with that logic. Just because a guy is on top doesn't mean he's winning. It's supposed to be MMA and guys like Condit with an active guard can fuck you up from that position. Hendricks scored takedowns then wasn't able to do anything because Condit never stopped working and had him on the defence constantly. If you take a guy down then spend the whole time eating elbows and fighting off submissions and sweeps then you shouldn't win the round in my opinion.

 

Thats more a point on the sport as a whole than this fight specifically because I don't think this was a bad call at all. But for all the crap Diaz says I do think he has a bit of a point that the judging is too geared towards wrestling and top position.

I agree that it is flawed.

 

I was just giving Hendricks credit for adapting to the judges preferences and showing he had decent fight I.Q. What you judge MMA on is a call that is a opinion more than a actual fact, control vs damage and other variables.

 

GSP post 2007 will not be to everyone's tastes, I can enjoy him for his high skill level but do not hold it against others who do not for how conservative he is.

[wandshogun09]

Ha I love the sig Jim. Where did you find that?

 

That photo reminds me, I was thinking recently about posting some similar stuff in the Past Fight thread. Sort of a mini, MMA version of the Random/Quirky pics thread on here. Obviously wasn't going to start a separate thread but there's loads of cool/funny MMA pics out there and the Past Fights thread would probably be the best place for them.

 

On GSP, I have to agree. There's no doubt he's a phenomenally skilled fighter, one of the best ever. I can still appreciate his skill and I loved his fight with Condit, but somewhere along the line I've just found him less enjoyable to watch on the whole. And that wasn't always the case. Back when he was steaming through Hughes, Trigg, Serra, Fitch etc he was awesome. He had a point to prove and he was wrecking everyone. I could be wrong but it seems like it's kind of more just a job now. Understandable because there's more at stake but I definitely found him more fun to watch between 2006-09ish.

[David]

GSP vs Diaz was just more of everything that I dislike about GSP, I know technically he's a great fighter but I just find him so boring, I really feel he lacks the killer instinct and just doesn't finish. I know Diaz was tricky, and squirmed a lot when he was taken down, and did everything he could to get out, but GSP didn't even seem to try to finish him, I could go on and on about this so I'll shut up but damn, he's boring.

On the subject of St-Pierre finishing opponents, it's worth bearing in mind that in his last five fights he's fought;

 

Nick Diaz - Last finished in September 2002, only stopped once in 36 fights (excluding a doctors stoppage).

Carlos Condit - Last finished in June 2006, only finished 3 times in 34 fights.

Jake Shields - Last finished in March 2000, only stopped once in 32 fights.

Josh Koscheck - Last finished in February 2009, only stopped twice in 20 fights.

Dan Hardy - Last finished in May 2005, only stopped 3 times in 31 fights.

 

Since March of 2006 St-Pierre has fought 14 times, and with the exception of Matt Serra and perhaps Dan Hardy at a push, he's faced the very best fighters the division had to offer. Since 2008 it's been pretty much the case that in order to earn the right to face him you have to be at the very top of your game. He isn't fighting guys who are on their way up yet still a bit green, or guys who used to be great but are on their way down.

 

Every fight for the past four or five years now has been against guys on a winning streak, and who are at the top of their game. The guys that he isn't finishing aren't being finished by anyone around the times he faces them. Look at his fight record from 2006 onwards and you'll see what I mean.

 

BJ Penn twice, Matt Hughes twice, Josh Koscheck, Jon Fitch, Thiago Alves, and the names mentioned above. Fuck, his last five opponents had a combined record of over 150 fights with only 10 stoppages against their names.

 

Would I prefer to see him stopping people like Anderson Silva does? Of course, but his style of fighting isn't the same as Silva's. He's not a devastating striker, nor is he a world-class BJJ player. He's probably the best all-round MMA fighter there's ever been, and unfortunately that doesn't lend itself to stoppages.

 

But for all the crap Diaz says I do think he has a bit of a point that the judging is too geared towards wrestling and top position.

Yet, when the fight was on the feet and St-Pierre was standing in front of him trading he was largely unable to do anything of note. St-Pierre had him well scouted, right down to the dropping of his hands, sticking out his chin routine that he's been doing for years now. The problem with Diaz is that whilst he's ~crazy~ and all that jazz, he's not really improved as a fighter in the past six or seven years.

 

A commanding performance from GSP and one that underlined his legacy further with the high status of the fight, but I do think he is capable of been beat at 170lbs which was not the case 4 years back.

You don't have to go back four years for it to be the case. He's not the same guy he was when he fought Jake Shields in April 2011.

 

I think many people are underestimating the knee injury he suffered just over a year ago. A ruptured ACL is a big fucking deal. Even top level NFL players are considered to be doing well if they only lose 20% of the strength in their quad a year after surgery. He also injured his meniscus, which can cause further tears in that, plus major knee pain and arthritis later on down the road.

 

In short, he's not going to be as explosive as he was pre-injury, that's for sure. For a guy who relied on that for a vast chunk of his game plan it's devastating. The way he had trouble taking Diaz down late in the fight at the weekend had more to do with him not operating at the level he once was than it does Diaz suddenly developing a takedown defence.

 

These factors are what makes me pick Hendricks to win in their fight. He has the style to cause St-Pierre problems anyway, but with this added factor I think he'll take it.

 

St-Pierre won't be able to take down and control Hendricks like he did Diaz and even Condit to an extent. This will result in more stand-up time, which is a problem for GSP as every punch thrown by Hendricks could be a night-ender.

 

I'll go on record right now and repeat what I've said ever since Hendricks earned the #1 contenders spot. He'll finish St-Pierre via KO or TKO, most likely in the 4th or 5th frame.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

On the subject of St-Pierre finishing opponents, it's worth bearing in mind that in his last five fights he's fought;

 

Nick Diaz - Last finished in September 2002, only stopped once in 36 fights (excluding a doctors stoppage).

Carlos Condit - Last finished in June 2006, only finished 3 times in 34 fights.

Jake Shields - Last finished in March 2000, only stopped once in 32 fights.

Josh Koscheck - Last finished in February 2009, only stopped twice in 20 fights.

Dan Hardy - Last finished in May 2005, only stopped 3 times in 31 fights.

Your breakdown really made me soften in my criticism of GSP, but a couple of stats were off. Hardy got finished twice after the GSP fight (KO by Condit, sub by Lytle), while Shields got KOed by Ellenberger in about 50 seconds in his fight after GSP. So it's definitely possible to finish the guys he's fighting.

 

Condit is a beast though, he took some hellish shots from Hendricks and kept firing away.

[David]

Your breakdown really made me soften in my criticism of GSP, but a couple of stats were off. Hardy got finished twice after the GSP fight (KO by Condit, sub by Lytle), while Shields got KOed by Ellenberger in about 50 seconds in his fight after GSP. So it's definitely possible to finish the guys he's fighting.

 

Condit is a beast though, he took some hellish shots from Hendricks and kept firing away.

My stats aren't off, they're the stats that all of those fighters had when they faced St-Pierre. What happens afterwards doesn't come into the equation. Those guys were at the top of their game when they stepped into the cage against him.

 

As I mentioned, St-Pierre isn't a finishing fighter, it's as simple as that.

 

If you're a puncher (like Hardy & Condit), then you can put people away, and if you're a submission guy like Shields, you can submit opponents. St-Pierre is neither a great finisher or a submission expert, but he's extremely well versed in both aspects. Where he comes into his own is wrestling, especially when it comes to applying it to MMA. He's probably the very best in the sport as far as that goes, which is ridiculous considering he has virtually no wrestling background.

 

Those other guys you mention, whilst they provide excitement and whilst they finish a lot of fights, they also have glaring holes in their games. Condit isn't a top level wrestler, neither is Hardy, whilst Shields stand-up is virtually non-existent.

 

There is no holes in St-Pierre's game at all. Not one. Does it make him boring to watch? To some, possibly. I don't find him boring at all, and neither do the shitloads of people who buy his PPV's and tickets to see him fight.

[Miamivenis]

What happens after most certainly should come into the equation. These guys don't become different / lesser fighters post-GSP, they're the same guys. If anything they should be better fighters in their subsequent bouts (given experience gained and natural progression). Someone like Hardy had a pretty easy run into his title fight, has since been confirmed as someone well outside the top tier and yet GSP couldn't finish him in 5 rounds. Shields is a slightly different matter as his head clearly wasn't in the game in the Ellenberger fight and with good reason. But yeah, I do actually agree with a large part of what you said in that GSP is facing the top level (at the time) hence the expectation to finish every fight is a little unfair.

 

Having said that like some others on here I find GSP pretty dull and that's down to the risk adverse strategy he employs. He's clearly an amazing athlete and phenomenal student of MMA but with his high profile he's developed into a points fighter. Given the reward on offer for those at the very top and the inherent risk in looking for a finish when he can comfortably control a fight I can understand why he does it but it would be nice if he'd at least attempt to finish a little more - mainly thinking of the Kos fight here where he had him on the back foot from the first minute and yet never pulled the trigger. He's proven in his career he can finish and given the amount he dominates the action in fights it's crazy he hasn't managed it since Serra (or Penn if corner stoppages count). The Hardy fight aside I can't even recall a time he's come particularly close to finishing.

 

The main thing that irks me about GSP these days is not his routine domination over 25 mins but his post-fight promos where he 180's on the hype leading into the fight (Kos / Diaz). Just pretend you hate them until you get backstage George!

[David]

What happens after most certainly should come into the equation. These guys don't become different / lesser fighters post-GSP, they're the same guys. If anything they should be better fighters in their subsequent bouts (given experience gained and natural progression). Someone like Hardy had a pretty easy run into his title fight, has since been confirmed as someone well outside the top tier and yet GSP couldn't finish him in 5 rounds.

What do you want him to do? Take unnecessary risks and perhaps get laid out like he did against Matt Serra? As for Dan Hardy, St-Pierre virtually bent his arm in half looking for the submission, but the guy simply wouldn't tap out.

 

He fights to win the contest, and tries to do so in the way that sees him take as little risk and damage as possible. If you don't like it, then don't watch. He's not short on fans so I doubt those who don't like his fighting style will be missed too much.

 

Having said that like some others on here I find GSP pretty dull and that's down to the risk adverse strategy he employs. He's clearly an amazing athlete and phenomenal student of MMA but with his high profile he's developed into a points fighter. Given the reward on offer for those at the very top and the inherent risk in looking for a finish when he can comfortably control a fight I can understand why he does it but it would be nice if he'd at least attempt to finish a little more - mainly thinking of the Kos fight here where he had him on the back foot from the first minute and yet never pulled the trigger. He's proven in his career he can finish and given the amount he dominates the action in fights it's crazy he hasn't managed it since Serra (or Penn if corner stoppages count). The Hardy fight aside I can't even recall a time he's come particularly close to finishing.

Look at it this way, he's been dominant in the division, he's made millions of dollars, been in the game for over ten years and has managed to get this far without sounding like Chuck Liddell when he talks, so he's doing something right.

 

I agree, his style isn't for everyone, but he's in his thirties now, and he won't change his style.

 

The main thing that irks me about GSP these days is not his routine domination over 25 mins but his post-fight promos where he 180's on the hype leading into the fight (Kos / Diaz). Just pretend you hate them until you get backstage George!

Yeah, he makes the serious error of being a genuine nice bloke. You can tell that he doesn't want to hurt or hate anyone, can't you? The Diaz schtick prompted him to play along a little, but I really doubt anyone thought that St-Pierre even disliked Diaz.

[Miamivenis]

What do you want him to do? Take unnecessary risks and perhaps get laid out like he did against Matt Serra? As for Dan Hardy, St-Pierre virtually bent his arm in half looking for the submission, but the guy simply wouldn't tap out.

I'd like him to use his repeated positional advantages to look for a finish though by no means do I expect it. Considering I didn't state at any point he shouldn't fight his style or that it's wrong for him to fight like that I find it strange you're replying as though I did. I fully understand why he fights like he does and explained that in my post. I also referenced that he tried to finish Hardy but failed to. You seem to have (unsurprisingly) missed the point I was making which is simply that you can't ignore what happened to these guys post-GSP as it's all relative.

 

He fights to win the contest, and tries to do so in the way that sees him take as little risk and damage as possible.

Yeah, I know. that's exactly what I wrote. Congratulations on rephrasing it.

 

If you don't like it, then don't watch. He's not short on fans so I doubt those who don't like his fighting style will be missed too much.

Oh right so any MMA fan who thinks he's boring should simply stop watching and not have an opinion on his fighting style and / or debate it? What's the point of these threads then?

 

Yeah, he makes the serious error of being a genuine nice bloke. You can tell that he doesn't want to hurt or hate anyone, can't you? The Diaz schtick prompted him to play along a little, but I really doubt anyone thought that St-Pierre even disliked Diaz.

I'd wager money I'm not the only one who thought he had a least a vague dislike of Diaz given him saying for the past year that he couldn't stand him and wanted to shut him up. Oh and the fact Diaz is a bit of a knob who was swinging for him after the bell. I'm just bored of these fabricated conflicts being exposed immediately.

[ColinBollocks]

Personally, I always enjoy watching a master strategist like GSP out think and outperform his opponents. For all of Diaz's undeniable ability, he couldn't cope with what GSP had planned for him. I'm amazed at how critical people have been, considering GSP dominated. For me, it's similar to when Spain were playing in the Euros and people were having a go because they seemed to cruise through by the odd goal instead of battering teams 6-1, despite having 70+% of possession, most games. People got spoiled by their consistent excellence, through the years. As others have stated, it's not like GSP is fighting bums, he's dominated a talent heavy weight class.

 

I do agree that he needs to cut out the post-match, "it was all hype, he's a mate" schtick. Somebody should have a word.

[wandshogun09]

Yet, when the fight was on the feet and St-Pierre was standing in front of him trading he was largely unable to do anything of note.

 

I didn't deny that. He beat Diaz everywhere. Me agreeing with Diaz's point on judging favouring wrestling is just that, I'm agreeing with the point. No doubt he brought it up due partly to sour grapes but there's validity to the criticism.

 

I'm talking in MMA as a whole not GSP/Diaz. Sometimes the guy on bottom does more than the guy on top (eg - Miguel Torres vs Mighty Mouse), but a lot of judges don't recognise that. That's all I meant, nothing to do with this particular fight and in fact, when Diaz brought it up at the press conference he was talking about the Hendricks vs Condit fight.

 

A fight like GSP/Diaz, where one guy gets schooled on the ground to the point he got almost no offence in, absolutely should be heavily scored for the guy on top. But judging still needs looking into.

[David]

You seem to have (unsurprisingly) missed the point I was making which is simply that you can't ignore what happened to these guys post-GSP as it's all relative.

Not in the context of my point though. All of these guys came into the fight with St-Pierre at the top of their game, and carrying the records I mentioned. Regardless of what happened afterwards, Hardy hadn't been stopped in five years before facing St-Pierre.

 

I'd wager money I'm not the only one who thought he had a least a vague dislike of Diaz given him saying for the past year that he couldn't stand him and wanted to shut him up. Oh and the fact Diaz is a bit of a knob who was swinging for him after the bell. I'm just bored of these fabricated conflicts being exposed immediately.

He probably isn't Diaz biggest fan, but he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who has it in him to really dislike anyone. He's seen how things work with the UFC, that they want to sell fights and obviously he makes some money out of doing just that so he'll play along and pretend that he goes "to a dark place" and that he's all angry and shit when he really isn't.

 

If he was honest he'd have simply said "I want to fight Diaz because he acts like a fucking numpty, which draws all the idiot casual fans into buying the PPV, which in turn throws more dollars in my direction. An added bonus is that he's nowhere near as big a threat to me as Hendricks is, who I can always fight afterwards"

 

Instead of the real, bona fide grudge matches being few and far between, thus making them special and historic, we have loads of top level guys trying to be pro wrestlers and manufacture a feud with someone in order to get a title match or get pushed further up the card.

 

Diaz openly said before the fight that he was "playing the bad guy" because it's the only way he could get a crack at the belt. He summed it up perfectly here;

 

"You (St. Pierre) told the fans that I deserve to get beat down, that I chased you around. I got the fight, right? I'm working towards something, everybody knows that. Sorry I had to [say you were scared] to get the fight. They're selling you (fans and media) all wolf tickets people, you're eating them right up. Georges here is selling wolf tickets. Dana here is selling wolf tickets. The UFC is selling wolf tickets. You guys are eating them right up."

Even St-Pierre admitted that most of his pre-fight comments were spliced together for marketing purposes by the UFC. That's how the majority of fans wanted things apparently, so that's how we have them.

I do agree that he needs to cut out the post-match, "it was all hype, he's a mate" schtick. Somebody should have a word.

I'd be more insulted if he continued to "kayfabe" during the post-fight presser if I'm honest. What he should do is simply approach the fight honestly. If he really believes Diaz is the number 1 contender, then fair enough. He shouldn't have to go into all the cringeworthy nonsense about dark places and suchlike.

[jimufctna24]

Ha I love the sig Jim. Where did you find that?

 

That photo reminds me, I was thinking recently about posting some similar stuff in the Past Fight thread. Sort of a mini, MMA version of the Random/Quirky pics thread on here. Obviously wasn't going to start a separate thread but there's loads of cool/funny MMA pics out there and the Past Fights thread would probably be the best place for them.

Google, I searched down a few pages and there it was.

 

I think that is a great idea, I would chip in if you started it.

[David]

I didn't deny that. He beat Diaz everywhere. Me agreeing with Diaz's point on judging favouring wrestling is just that, I'm agreeing with the point. No doubt he brought it up due partly to sour grapes but there's validity to the criticism.

Whilst I agree to an extent, I don't think it's really as bad as many make it out to be. I can't think of many fights where one fighter simply takes down someone and holds them there, especially without the official standing them up. In fact, I'd say that I've probably seen more needless and confusing stand-ups than I have the opposite in recent times.

 

I'm talking in MMA as a whole not GSP/Diaz. Sometimes the guy on bottom does more than the guy on top (eg - Miguel Torres vs Mighty Mouse), but a lot of judges don't recognise that. That's all I meant, nothing to do with this particular fight and in fact, when Diaz brought it up at the press conference he was talking about the Hendricks vs Condit fight.

This point I do agree with, but the problem is that it is all subjective really, isn't it? Are you going to score more for the BJJ player who's trying (but ultimately failing) to lock on a submission from the bottom? Or the wrestler who's maintaining position and avoiding said submission attempt?

 

I know what Diaz was talking about, but he's biased towards a BJJ/boxing view, isn't he? Condit was active on the bottom, but he wasn't actually managing to lock on any subs or really cause any damage, was he? Hendricks was scoring the takedowns and was managing to implement his aim of control whilst nullifying Condit's game.

[Egg Shen]

few lates thoughts from me (been away):

 

* Main event was a disappointment but it played out like most people expected. GSP is just a horrible matchup for Diaz. I thought Diaz checked out after round 3, ive never seen Diaz quit in a fight but i think he did Saturday night, he just couldn't get anything going.

 

* Found it interesting that Diaz and Gracie have said since that they suspect that there was a bit of a mole in the camp as GSP knew the counters to everything Diaz did. Don't think much will come out of that and it just seems like a spot or sore losing.

 

* I knew the GSP critics would be out after the performance and i hear what their saying. The malice GSP showed against Carlos Condit was not shown Saturday, and it was safety first from the outset, it's smart and it clearly doesn't harm his appeal in Canada but i think everyone would like to see GSP cut loose a little more. I think Hendrick's is a much more dangerous opponent for GSP.

 

* Hendricks/Condit was great though, if this had been a 5 rounder Condit would have won it but i scored it 29-28 Hendricks (giving the 3rd to Condit).

 

* The fact that Hendricks has had to wait for a shot has benefited him, his stock has risen more, he's got his 'GSP is scared of me' quotes out there and he's got that fear factor thing going for him now, whenever Hendricks comes forward and throws the left the crowd react, it's f'n great. Its the same thing Crocop would get when he'd throw the headkick. People anticipate the violence.

 

* Don't agree with the Marquadt is finished talk, he got caught, simple as. Its a fight i'd like to have seen go longer. I hope Nate stick's around. Who do you put Ellenberger in with next?

 

* My Rogan gripe of the night came in the Camozzi/Ring fight. Rogan got the blinkers on and completely dismissed anything Camozzi was doing in round 2 (which i thought Camozzi won, as did the judges)...it was actually a pretty good fight, but it was a case of the crowd going silent and it translates to the TV and people just assume it's bad. Good example of how a crowd can alter perception.

 

* Freakshow/Ricci was a very poor fight, i know we all hoped Freakshow was stick around even off a loss, but i aint so sure now. Ricci didn't look good either but it's down to a clash of styles. Freakshow must be a very hard man to fight, very awkward style but when Rogan alludes to the fact that it looks like their sparring it aint a good thing.

 

* Prelims were good shit though, i thought Voelker beat Cote in a good fight, hope Voelker's sticks around. The Carvalho stoppage was ok with me, if that had gone 5 more seconds Carvalho would have been laid out. TJ Dillashaw just looked in a different league to Tamura. Jordan Mein is a f'n killer, been a fan since Strikeforce and im glad he's in there.