UFC on FOX 5: 'Henderson vs Diaz'

[lambyUK]

The issue I have with Chael primarily is that he wasn't always this personable, charisma-drenched character. Back in his original UFC run, and his stints with Bodog and WEC he was simply an upper-mid level wrestler who could grind out results. The same could be said about his early fights back with the UFC in 2009.

 

All of a sudden he developed a "personality" before his bout with Anderson. It's for this reason that I can't really be arsed with him. You talk about Tom Lawlor forcing a personality? Sonnen is doing the exact same thing in my opinion. Lawlor is a bit more obvious with his pro wrestling schtick though, that's for sure.

 

Sonnen is still the same upper-mid level wrestler who grinds out results. He's finished in one of his last seven wins, and that was against Brian Stann. Apart from that he's decisioned every fighter he's beaten since 2007.

 

I'll give you Rampage. He's a guy with a genuine level of charisma, and he came across as a real bad fucker in his days in PRIDE.

 

Fuck me David, it's this statement that proves how little you know of Sonnen's history. If you actually followed the guy, you would know that the Sonnen we know today was born before the Yushin Okami fight. Look at his Helwani interviews before this fight, and even Ariel Helwani cites that interview as the day "Chael P Sonnen" was born.

 

Sonnen never developed a personality. It was always there, the guy always had IT and has that charisma to deliver money promos.

 

Are you going to say the same thing about the Rock as it took him years to come out with the charismatic deliveries that he shows today? Now, obviously I know there is a difference between entertainment and the real world but the point is there isn't a particular point where you can show or develop charisma.

 

 

 

 

[David]

Fuck me David, it's this statement that proves how little you know of Sonnen's history. If you actually followed the guy, you would know that the Sonnen we know today was born before the Yushin Okami fight. Look at his Helwani interviews before this fight, and even Ariel Helwani cites that interview as the day "Chael P Sonnen" was born.

Okay, I was nine or ten months out. My apologies.

 

Sonnen never developed a personality. It was always there, the guy always had IT and has that charisma to deliver money promos.

Sonnen has basically assumed a pro wrestling style character. It wasn't always there, as he'd spent over ten years not being the over the top, zany character that we know today. He recognised that he was, as I've said, an upper-mid level wrestler who can grind out results, and that this wasn't going to really get him anywhere, so he assumed a character, a gimmick. I'm not saying that it hasn't worked for him, as it has. The fact that a fighter as limited as him has managed to get two cracks at the middleweight title, and has walked right into a light-heavyweight title shot without even competing in the division is testament to that.

 

I have a feeling from what I've seen and heard of the upcoming Ultimate Fighter season that he's changing his character ever so slightly. I think we're going to see a more comedy based schtick from him in the upcoming season.

 

Are you going to say the same thing about the Rock as it took him years to come out with the charismatic deliveries that he shows today? Now, obviously I know there is a difference between entertainment and the real world but the point is there isn't a particular point where you can show or develop charisma.

The Rock was playing a character on television for the first portion of his career. Once he was allowed the freedom to do a bit more of his own thing you saw his actual character come through. That didn't apply to Sonnen.

 

Unless he had someone writing his WEC & BODOG promos for him, of course

[jimufctna24]

The issue I have with Chael primarily is that he wasn't always this personable, charisma-drenched character. Back in his original UFC run, and his stints with Bodog and WEC he was simply an upper-mid level wrestler who could grind out results. The same could be said about his early fights back with the UFC in 2009.

 

All of a sudden he developed a "personality" before his bout with Anderson. It's for this reason that I can't really be arsed with him. You talk about Tom Lawlor forcing a personality? Sonnen is doing the exact same thing in my opinion. Lawlor is a bit more obvious with his pro wrestling schtick though, that's for sure.

 

Sonnen is still the same upper-mid level wrestler who grinds out results. He's finished in one of his last seven wins, and that was against Brian Stann. Apart from that he's decisioned every fighter he's beaten since 2007.

 

I'll give you Rampage. He's a guy with a genuine level of charisma, and he came across as a real bad fucker in his days in PRIDE.

Sonnen has more of a purpose, plus he never really got much spotlight until the first Anderson fight, when he did that he turned the volume up and sold the fight. I lot of what he says he does actually believe, the rest he is just piss-taking, his style is unique to him. If anyone else did it now it would be not work as well. Chael ramping up the volume is not unlike some stand-up comedians on stage, he just turns the volume up on his personality to the max, he is just so natural in front of the mic he gets away with it. There is always a bit of a nod or a wink that gives it charm, if he tried too hard or was not natural it would have not caught on.

 

Lawlor is harmless in what he does, but it does nothing for me. Its just seems like a guy trying to hard to be quirky. Plus his act does not really promote anything, Sonnen does it to promote his fight and draw interest, Lawlor just makes people laugh a bit, and a lot of what he does goes over peoples head as he tries to hard.

[JNLister]

I don't know if anybody else thought about this but there is somethine distinctly unlikeable about Rory MacDonad! It could make for a great teacher vs student fight with GSP.

 

McDonald is adamant about not fighting him. Admittedly this is just fantasy booking and largely irrelevant to MMA, but it would be amazing if GSP did move up to middleweight and retire after a fight with Silva, then McDonald wins the belt and runs through the division and continues getting arrogant, and then all the MMA writers and fans keep ragging him saying he'd never beat GSP until he snaps and demands GSP come out of retirement.

[David]

I don't know if anybody else thought about this but there is somethine distinctly unlikeable about Rory MacDonad! It could make for a great teacher vs student fight with GSP.

McDonald is adamant about not fighting him. Admittedly this is just fantasy booking and largely irrelevant to MMA, but it would be amazing if GSP did move up to middleweight and retire after a fight with Silva, then McDonald wins the belt and runs through the division and continues getting arrogant, and then all the MMA writers and fans keep ragging him saying he'd never beat GSP until he snaps and demands GSP come out of retirement.

If St-Pierre refused to fight him MacDonald could just show up at his local boozer in Montreal at Christmas and end up fighting him in a streetfight, where the whole saga ends with MacDonald getting sent into the front of a bus with a wicked uppercut.

[jimufctna24]

Bet you would love seeing GSP punching Dana "The Duke" White at the end

[Egg Shen]

Fuck me David, it's this statement that proves how little you know of Sonnen's history. If you actually followed the guy, you would know that the Sonnen we know today was born before the Yushin Okami fight. Look at his Helwani interviews before this fight, and even Ariel Helwani cites that interview as the day "Chael P Sonnen" was born.

Okay, I was nine or ten months out. My apologies.

 

Both wrong, Chael was doing his schtick back in the WEC, go back and watch his two fight series with Paulo Filho, it obviously wasn't as publicised then but go back and find interviews around the time, Chael's always been the same...he may have ramped it up a little, but that's mainly due to exposure.

 

As for last nights show...

 

first off, they may have been the best prelims ever. All of them entertained me.

 

* Abel Trujilo may be buried under main card talk and a few spectacular KO's on the prelims, but fucking hell, this was good a UFC debut this year, this guy looks like a fucking killer.

 

* Loved Rafael Assuncao giving Mike Easton a counter striking lesson. I like Easton, but he's one of these guys that's tooting his own horn before really proving himself, before this fight he was talking of a Renan Barao fight, he got taken to school and as proved later in the night, a strict boxing style isn't necessarily effective in MMA.

 

* Darren Cruickshank's KO was just insane, great way to end a wild fight. Henry Martinez reminds of Joey Beltran in there, he throws the same kind of brawling straight punches and he's as tough. Mental.

 

* Great to see Yves Edwards get another big win, ive always rooted against Jeremy Stephens, i think it's cause i sense he's right a bellend in real life, he may not be but that's the impression i get, i think he's got that old Robbie Lawler syndrome where he believed he couldn't be hurt in the cage, i think he disrespected Edwards power and paid for it...i'll always get exctied to see Stephens fight cause of how he fights but it was nice to see him be on the recieving end for once.

 

* Dennis Siver just dominated Nam Phan, one judge scored it 30-24! don't think ive ever heard that...Siver seems to adding shit to his game and has to be seen as a legit threat down at 145 now.

 

Main card...

 

* Something was wrong with Mike Swick from the off, maybe he wasnt all there before the Johnson fight but that ended so quick that we never really got to see, but he just didn't seem right to me, Brown's never been a concussive puncher but he took Swick out big time. The fairytale is over.

 

* Macdonald/Penn was just depressing. After about 2 minutes i knew the hype wasn't justified. I genuinely believe BJ thought he was going to relive the glory days but as we've seen so many time recently, when he's getting picked off on the feet he just goes into his shell and take a beating, no doubting BJ's toughness but he was just beaten up. I'd happily have seen the towel come in in round 2. As for Macdonald, he's definitly becoming one of the UFC villians (which is no bad thing), he's an odd one, and i don't like the cunt. The jury's still out a little for me, i wanna see Rory get into a bit of a dogfight and see how he comes out the other side, im still not convinced he can go a hard 3 rounds...looks like the Condit rematch is a go though.

 

* Shogun/Gustaffson pretty much played out like id invisioned. Shogun took a pasting again but gave a decent account of himself, i think he realised that his only chance standing was to throw them wild looping punches because it was the only way he could close the distance without getting picked off, Gustaffson proved he got a bit of a chin on him. The days of Shogun being a sharp muay thai machine are gone though, this beating wont have done him much good down the line but there's no doubt he'll continue...unbelievable that the dude's only 31.

 

* Loved the main event. I think that beings that i was a big WEC fan ive always been on the Benson-train, but im in total disagreement at the no-charisma thing, i thought last night was a bit of starmaking performance from him, dunno if im biased but he just looked awesome...he might not be finishing fights but he's got an exciting style and there's no doubt that he's trying to get dude's out of there. I know the swagger can turn people off but i love it, it's abit like the shit that turned people off Rashad Evans, but it's just the way some people fight. The performance itself was outstanding, it was just a perfect shutting down of everything that makes Nate Diaz so dangerous, Benson beat Nate up. Great to see Nate take it like a man too, he knew he'd taken an ass whooping.

 

As for the toothpick

 

The changing of the guard thing was all Mike Goldberg talked about last night, and if people want to look at the Fox shows as a great platform for the UFC to establish new 'names' in the promotion i think Saturday night did it's job.

 

...oh i loved Brian Stann's pre-fight analysis on the big screen thing too, that was some cool shit.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

If someone had to ask me my dream results for all fights I don't think it could have really gone any better.

If you asked to name my nightmare results, I do not think it would be any worse.

 

Times are a changing, but outside of JDS is the new school do not do much for me in terms of personality. Rory has the personality of a brick, and Benson is still bible boy, great fighters but boring bastards. Charisma is something most are just naturally born with, so I do not expect or want either to become Chael Version 2.0.

 

So the fights were good, but for me the new blood will take some time to warm to.

Pretty much the way I feel. I've calmed down from the bitterness that I had immediately after the show (watching 3 fights in a row where your pick gets owned will do that), but yeah, there's nothing personality-wise from the "new breed" to draw people in. Not everybody has to be Chael, but the old guard all were likable due to different aspects of their personality. Guys like MacDonald and Gusty might as well be the fighting robot on FOX.

 

It was a good card, but I'm hoping if these guys are the future of MMA, they give me a reason to care, one way or another. I think Rory's en route to being a major heel in UFC, with the showboating in the Octagon and his demeanor outside it, he's like the anti-GSP. Never noticed until now though.

[wandshogun09]

Bet you would love seeing GSP punching Dana "The Duke" White at the end

 

Haha, exactly what I thought of. I like Lister's UFC/Rocky V idea.

[jimufctna24]

Maybe I am getting cynical about MMA.

 

But I do remember when the torch was passed from Couture to Liddel and from Hughes to GSP the fans excepted and warmed to the new school. Anderson over Frankin granted did take some time for people to warm to Silva, but people never really hated him until 2008 when he had a few boring outings. Now he is one of the most beloved fighters ever, so things can change. Then again, when Rashad beat Liddel fans were luckwarm, and most fans for whatever reason have never warmed to Rashad.

 

People have not exactly been overjoyed with most of the new school, only JDS who reminds me of how fans loved GSP in 2005 has the heart of the audience. Jones is hated in most MMA circles, so I guess he is rogue which is a reaction at least.

 

Two of the most thunderous reactions in recent times have when old school has beaten new school, with Tito beating Bader and Nog beating Scraub, the former of which is amazing since Tito was seen as a rogue for years by fans. Nog was in Brazil but still, fans all over the world rejoiced about that. MMA fans cling to the old school now more than ever.

 

Maybe someone on here who has watched it longer than me can be a bit more positive.

[Egg Shen]

i think it's all to do with the fact that the guys that get all the love now are the guys that caused most people to get into the sport, afterall, MMA is generally a new sport and people just have a soft spot for the guys that made it all happen so to speak... i think the torch does get passed down slowly and eventually the old school will be gone and fans will embrace the new guys it's just a slow progress, it also shows that MMA fans can be be pretty loyal.

 

I dunno if you've aware of an MMA fan/internet celebrity called Bloodstain Lane? he sums it up, he loves anything old school, especially anything from Pride and he takes to the net to voice his disgust anytime one of the old timers are taken out. It's interesting because whilst i think he's half playing a 'character' he echoes the voice of many hardcore MMA fans. Newer fans just get swept up in the hysteria surrounding these guys and that's why they keep getting the biggest reactions.

[Shane O' Mac Version 2]

There's probably some truth to that, my earliest and fondest memories of UFC are Penn blitzing Caol Uno in seconds and racing out of the Octagon, and Tito Ortiz making old man Shamrock his bitch. As a 12 year old, even after watching the first Elimination Chamber, I thought that was the coolest shit ever.

 

Maybe the new guys just need some standout "moments". Both Penn/Macdonald and Shogun/Gustaffson went to decision. How much more impactful would the passing of the torch look if, say, Rory stopped BJ by elbowing him into a bloody mess, and Gusty choked Shogun out?

[Egg Shen]

finishes help for sure, but there was no doubting who the superior fighters were in the cage Saturday night.

[lambyUK]

Ebb, regarding your "you're wrong" regarding Chael's character. I was specifically referencing the ramped up version of Chael that David is referencing.. I've seen a shit load of WEC footage and whilst I agree he displays some charisma, he didn't ramp it up until the build up to the Okami fight. It stemmed from his frustration on receiving an opponent who couldn't speak English and sell a fight and as I say, Helwani references this specific interview as the catalyst of the Chael we see today.

[jimufctna24]

i think it's all to do with the fact that the guys that get all the love now are the guys that caused most people to get into the sport, afterall, MMA is generally a new sport and people just have a soft spot for the guys that made it all happen so to speak... i think the torch does get passed down slowly and eventually the old school will be gone and fans will embrace the new guys it's just a slow progress, it also shows that MMA fans can be be pretty loyal.

I hope you are right.

 

I forget a lot of fans cheered Ken Shamrock over Tito in 2002, so in MMA's history fans can be quite loyal as you said.