Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted December 7, 2012 Author Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 Man, now David's got a problem with Shogun. I'm really starting to think you just love going against the grain for the sake of it. Thing is you bring up some fair points but the way you word it makes me think you're doing it to go against the majority. You must get that, like Ebb said, people have their favourite fighters and root for them. Â Shogun and Wandy have been my two favourite fighters since I got into MMA 7 years ago. Why would I root against Shogun now just because he's not as good as he was in his prime? Same with Big Nog, I know he's on his last legs as a fighter but it doesn't mean I should think "ah fuck him he's not as good now". Isn't that called glory hunting? Â The "Pride fighters were all on steroids" is an easy excuse to make and I'm not denying or claiming Shogun may have partaken in it back then, we don't know. What we do know is that his decline started when his run of injuries started in 06-07. He's had his knees rebuilt twice in the period you're on about. Could that not be a factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Man, now David's got a problem with Shogun. I'm really starting to think you just love going against the grain for the sake of it. Thing is you bring up some fair points but the way you word it makes me think you're doing it to go against the majority. You must get that, like Ebb said, people have their favourite fighters and root for them. I don't have a problem with Shogun, I just don't think a win for him is beneficial to the division. I'm neither here nor there when it comes to the guy, so maybe that's the reason for my indifference. I simply have no desire to see him crushed by Jon Jones again. Â Shogun and Wandy have been my two favourite fighters since I got into MMA 7 years ago. Why would I root against Shogun now just because he's not as good as he was in his prime? Same with Big Nog, I know he's on his last legs as a fighter but it doesn't mean I should think "ah fuck him he's not as good now". Isn't that called glory hunting? Glory hunting? I wouldn't think so. If my favourite fighter (Wanderlei) was put up against a real up & comer, and someone who is considered one of the legit threats to a dominant champion I'm not sure if I'd want him to win, especially if he'd already been embarrassed by said champion previously. Rather than see my favourite fighter get demolished again I'd probably rather see a younger, fresher guy get the shot. Â Make no mistake about it, the UFC have placed Shogun in this role to lose. Gustafsson is expected to win, and win big here. I really don't believe that Dana has any intention of signing Shogun/Jones II if somehow Shogun pulls off the win. It's a fight that virtually no one really wants to see, is it? Â The "Pride fighters were all on steroids" is an easy excuse to make and I'm not denying or claiming Shogun may have partaken in it back then, we don't know. What we do know is that his decline started when his run of injuries started in 06-07. He's had his knees rebuilt twice in the period you're on about. Could that not be a factor? It could be a factor, but to think that these guys were fighting clean when they were under no obligation to do so is naive at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members lambyUK Posted December 7, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 Did anyone who saw the build show know the name of the song at the beginning & end? I just got a text from someone I know asking that very question, and I haven't a clue. Â Google's your friend David...type in the lyrics..and boom... Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted December 7, 2012 Author Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 Thing is though, pretty much every fighter who talks about it says a massive percentage of fighters are on PEDs and know how to avoid getting caught. Mac Danzig on Rogan's podcast recently said he estimates around 60% are either on something or have been. So I don't know why this accusation gets thrown almost solely at ex Pride fighters.  Also the likes of Shogun, Nog, Wandy, Cro Cop etc have never failed a test, unless there's hard proof out there that they're dirty then it's not really fair for people to go tarnishing their careers without proof  I agree with you fully that Jones would beat Shogun again, and that they're probably hoping for Gustafsson to win. But again, I still want to see Shogun win. And if he fights Jones again same thing, I'll be shouting at my TV at 5am hoping he'll somehow pull it off. He won't, but it doesn't stop me hoping he will.  It's as simple as rooting for the fighter I like more. You can't hinge everything on what happens after because as we know plans in MMA change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 One thing I have noticed is, the new school are a bit more serious than the old school and not really characters. Â I know this due to it being more of a sport these days, but Jon Jones, Carlos Condit, Renan Barao, Rory Macdonald, Ryan Bader and Johnny Hendricks hardly have the charisma/charm of vets like Anderson, Chael, Rampage, Wanderlai, BJ and Big Nog do they? None of them are as likable as GSP was on his way up, or Couture did when he came back. Â Jon Jones is a bit of a rogue, and people pay to see him, but the rest the casual fans seem indifferent to. Chael and Brock had the "love to hate" trait to them that made fans interested, these days the dwindling numbers show the casuals do not care about say Might Mouse Johnson or Travis Browne. This not a call for MMA to turn into pro wrestling, just a observation. Â JDS has a bit of something about him, he is very likable, but as good and complete the new school are as fighters, they do not have the heart of the fans like the old school did. Â Shogun has the heart of the audience, people really do like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Did anyone who saw the build show know the name of the song at the beginning & end? I just got a text from someone I know asking that very question, and I haven't a clue. Â Google's your friend David...type in the lyrics..and boom... Â Yeah, I tried that. I couldn't really make out the lyrics. Maybe I'm getting old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members lambyUK Posted December 7, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 Did anyone who saw the build show know the name of the song at the beginning & end? I just got a text from someone I know asking that very question, and I haven't a clue.  Google's your friend David...type in the lyrics..and boom...  Yeah, I tried that. I couldn't really make out the lyrics. Maybe I'm getting old  To be fair, it was quite difficult but I picked out "tell me now, show me how" and it was the first vid at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Thing is though, pretty much every fighter who talks about it says a massive percentage of fighters are on PEDs and know how to avoid getting caught. Mac Danzig on Rogan's podcast recently said he estimates around 60% are either on something or have been. So I don't know why this accusation gets thrown almost solely at ex Pride fighters. Also the likes of Shogun, Nog, Wandy, Cro Cop etc have never failed a test, unless there's hard proof out there that they're dirty then it's not really fair for people to go tarnishing their careers without proof Its due to Pride have zero drug testing and the UFC having testing, yes the UFC testing is seen by most to be faulty but it is present.  I am of the opinion that if a fighter has to cycle their PED's it will hinder their results compared to fighters who can go all out of them, I have no proof of that though its just a theory.  It is unfair, but by the same token, Overeem has been given shit for years and other than how his physique changed there was no proof until this year, and even now a minority question that. People cried cheat at him worse than the Pride mainstays (remember Overeem was prob clean in Pride, it was only after people began to question him) and you could argue it was for good reason, but a cheat is still a cheat no matter how obvious they make it. But people will cry foul at fighters who are dumb enough to make it obvious like Overeem.  I do believe that Chute Boxe in Pride and Overeem were/are the worst juicers in the game, with Chute Boxe I have no proof other than stuff I have heard on the grapevine.  Cro Cop and Nog are curious cases, Nog I could see being fairly clean. I believe JDS is clean and Nog is his hero so maybe he had some influence. Cro Cop is judged on him looking softer in the UFC, but that could be down to him being lazy.  We could all point fingers, only the Diaz brothers, Roy Nelson, Bisping, BJ and JDS I think are defo clean (other than Pot with Diaz/BJ). But sometimes you just want to forget it and cheer for you like.  For the record I think Shogun has been clean in the UFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted December 7, 2012 Author Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 Oh yeah, the fact that there was little to no testing in Pride opens them up to criticism but my point was that, like Danzig said on the podcast, loads of fighters are at it even now and many take stuff like HGH which isn't even tested for. My point wasn't to say the Pride guys were squeaky clean, just that it's gone on and is still going on throughout the sport not just the Pride guys. Â People just throw out the "he was in Pride + he's not as good in the UFC = must be roids" thing willy nilly. There are loads of factors why guys decline. Wandy's fall started in Pride when he looked juiced to the gills in 05-06. So with him It wasn't a case of getting off the gear and then going downhill. His decline was coming either way. Shogun was plagued by injuries, Nog had too many wars, Cro Cop mistakenly felt he could wreck shop in the UFC without even training in a cage etc etc. Â I suspect some were using but they're certainly not the only guilty ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted December 7, 2012 Author Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 And Cro Cop lazy Jim? The man won't rest. Cro Cop, like Shogun, looks softer now in large part due to knee injuries. Try getting quality road work and cardio in with the knees of a pensioner. I bet my Nan could outrun Cro Cop and Shogun these days. Â Shogun probably is partly laziness as well but it was after the knee injuries where Chubby Shogun showed up. And anyway, it's unrealistic to expect Cro Cop to look as ripped as he did 10 years ago. He still looks in great shape for a guy pushing 40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I get you  Pride fighters are a easy target as there is a tiny bit more proof than with others. Plus it suits the argument like you said to say "Wandy declined because he came off the gear" which as stated is clearly not true.  All the reasons noted for guy declining I agree with.  Say if someone though like a Michael Bisping (who as I noted is clean) was using then went clean and lost a load, no one would bring that up as it is not obvious he was using. Pride guys get it as some like Wanderlai looked like they were juicing and with no tests and the decline Stateside, they put 2 and 2 together and get 5.  EDIT: Should have said motivation, the ref who oversaw him fight Kongo said Cro Cop said in the middle of the fight "I am getting to old for this" plus he always had outside interests like fishing and politics, MMA was not always his main focus. Remember Chael mocked him for claiming "I lose my motivation"  The Cro Cop of 2007 either aged in a year or lost something, because a year earlier he would have wrecked Kongo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted December 7, 2012 Author Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 I think with Cro Cop the Gonzaga loss just mentally raped him. Not just the KO the whole fight. The way Gonzaga was able to take him down, bully him, elbow him, then KO him with his own technique...it was absolutely soul destroying for him I think.  By the time he fought Kongo he was still in great shape physically but he was done mentally as a fighter. Then he fucked his knee up in 2008ish which effectively took his kicks away and it left him a shell of what he was. If you notice, in all his post-knee surgery fights his kicks have been ineffective, even when they've landed to the head. He can't generate the same speed or power with them anymore. He also doesn't really use his right arm anymore and you see him twitching and moving the arm around a lot now. Possible nerve damage? He must be in pain daily now  But back on topic, he didn't start looking heavy until around the Al-Turk fight which was right after his knee surgery.  Interestingly, Rampage hinted recently that Bisping has dabbled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Egg Shen Posted December 7, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 Tim Means is out of his prelim tomorrow, slipped in the sauna, wtf?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Bus Surfer Posted December 7, 2012 Paid Members Share Posted December 7, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimufctna24 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Interestingly, Rampage hinted recently that Bisping has dabbled. Your Cro Cop analysis makes sense. Â But got a link to that? Have those two fallen out or something? Â EDIT: Did my research, thanks did not know about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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