UFC 148: Silva vs. Sonnen II Thread

[Supremo]

Woah, where to start? With the easily disproved nonsense, I guess...

 

If a fighter so desires they can still come out to the cage 'pre-greased'.

No, they can't. Read the rules that I've already provided. It deems the following to be illegal:

 

Applying any foreign substance to the hair, body, clothing or gloves immediately prior to or during a contest or exhibition that could result in an unfair advantage

This rule was amended the same year (2009) as GSP vs. BJ by the way, so something did come of that scandal. But yeah; pre-greasing before a fight is the very definition of this rule. It's the very reason fighters are watched by inspectors hours leading into the fight and then checked by refs and officials before they go into the cage. As a fan of the sport you must've seen

a million times, so what exactly did you think they were doing if it wasn't checking for grease?

 

Still don't believe me? Here's an interview with Greg Jackson explaining how, "You can’t grease somebody up. You just couldn’t do it. They check your body before you get into the cage, there’s an inspector right there."

 

As further evidence

of UFC cut guys giving instructions before fights about how vaseline or similar substances are, "not allowed in the dressing room or at The Octagon."

 

I'll also provide you with this article, which goes into incredible detail about how fights are regulated. It explains how fighters are constantly monitored by officials from the moment they enter the arena, as well as providing us with this lovely gem of information; "Referee Josh Rosenthal explains that, in addition to ensuring the fighter remembers his or her mouthguard and cup, he is checking to ensure that fingernails are properly trimmed and that there is no improper "grease" on the body. Rosenthal laughingly recounts how he had once come across a fighter who was already slippery and explained to Rosenthal that he was just helping the process along by "pre-Vaselining." Rosenthal thus checks all fighters' limbs and behind their ears for "pre-Vaselining." Although he inspects with his black surgical gloves on, other refs, such as Jason Herzog, prefer to do the inspection without them."

 

I mean seriously, did you honestly think that they'd allow guys to grease beforehand, but then make such a big deal about them not doing it during the fight? Don't you think at the most basic of levels that sounds incredibly silly?

 

You need to chill out.

Don't worry, I'm chilled. I know my stuff.

 

The vaseline is applied by a cornerman and checked outside by the ref. Once he gives you the OK the Vaseline that is on you is legal It is not, or ever has been illegal to touch the greased area of your face. All rules relate to grease being applied to limbs technically relate to before the fight or by cornermen during rounds.

No, they don't. The rule, which I've just quoted above, pertains to adding the substance "prior to or during a contest," for an, "unfair advantage." There's no mention of corner men, things happening during rounds, or this weird fixation you've got about there being legal vaseline vs. fake vaseline. The rule is exactly as it states above. You can't put a substance on yourself for an unfair advantage before or during, which Anderson did. And again, to take it to the most basic of levels, if it was legal, then why did the ref step in and wipe him down? It's because what he did was illegal, which the ref acknowledged. It's that simple.

 

Is Silva taking the piss doing what he did? Yes. Is it technically illegal?, It can be argued either way.

No, it can't. It goes directly against the law I've quoted above, which makes it illegal. He put a substance on his body to gain an unfair advantage. That's against the rules. Things against the rules are illegal.

 

I've said all along that Silva rubbing the vaseline from his face was suspect & a fine would be appropriate yet your little outburst claiming

It was genuinely one of the most flagrant, unjustifiable acts of cheating I can ever recall.

was completely disproportionate to what actually happened. Should they look into fighters doing this more? If it's that much of a problem then obviously yes. But I maintain that repeated groin shots, eye pokes & come to mention it, punches to the back of the head are worse offenders as these can instantly change the whole momentum of a fight.

I've already gone over this. I find things that happen during a fight (like eye-pokes and groin kicks, etc.) to be less flagrant and more justifiable because emotions are running high, guys have to make split-second decisions and human error or simply getting caught up in the moment can happen. Cheating before a fight however, whether that be greasing or taking steroids? I find that to be far worse because there's no justification and no excuses. It's a calm, calculated attempt at gaining an unfair advantage, with no way of justifying it. You weren't caught up in the moment, it wasn't an accident and it's not a case of human error. That's why I described what Anderson did as one of the most flagrant and unjustifiable acts, since it was one of the most blatant acts of cheating before a fight I can ever recall. Now, if you disagree with this point then articulate why. You know, move the discussion forward. Don't just keep randomly calling it reactionary, or ridiculous, or whatever. Explain why I'm wrong, if you believe me to be so. That's exactly what I've just done; stating why I think cheating before a fight is far worse than cheating during a fight. Now it's your turn. If it helps, look up the words flagrant and unjustifiable.

 

Aren't you the guy who usually preaches to all of us simple MMA fans about how money should always come out on top of logic & law?

No, I'm the guy who usually preaches about money over, "sport," mentality. I've never mentioned law. There's a big difference. My point is always that for the sport to succeed (which everyone wants it to do, right?) you can't always go with the two best fighters against one another. Sometimes you have to promote more attractive fights, whether that means giving more charismatic guys bigger breaks or simply booking fights you think people would want to see rather than which fights would decisively prove who's the best in a particular division. You should know this already though, since you've been agreeing with me on this very point concerning FOX shows. I've never once championed cheats and always wanted guys who break the law to be punished accordingly. Even guys like Diaz and Chael who I like, when they get busted I just shrug because they get everything they deserve. Again, this is because I want the sport to grow and succeed.

 

If we're playing the, "Aren't You That Guy?" game though, aren't you that guy who described my original assessment of Anderson as, "Bang on," only to do a complete 180 when you saw it wasn't the popular opinion?

[jimufctna24]

Would it not kinda be a way of cheating to get a title shot undeserved though just because you have a more marketable personality, yes there is no law as such in place, but the promotion in turn does kinda cheat the people who deserve the title shot, yet do not draw money?

[Supremo]

Would it not kinda be a way of cheating to get a title shot undeserved though just because you have a more marketable personality, yes there is no law as such in place, but the promotion in turn does kinda cheat the people who deserve the title shot, yet do not draw money?

To a degree, I suppose, yeah. But I accept that injustice because I understand it'll ultimately benefit every fighter in the sport by making the sport bigger. The reason it's where it's at today is because they gave guys like Brock Lesnar and Ken Shamrock chances when records and, "sport mentality," meant they shouldn't have received them at that point in their careers.

 

Plus, as you said yourself, there's no law against it. Promoters can ultimately do whatever the fuck they want in that sense, so all I care about there is that the promoters make the best decisions for the sport to get bigger. UFC have done a great job of that, all in all.

[jimufctna24]

Fair enough, some could say that is a double standard and cheating is cheating even with no legislation in place for example TRT, but I see what you mean

 

I have not really had time to think about how I feel about greasegate 2, may have to read through the pages on here to decide where I stand tomorrow when I have a moment.

[Supremo]

Fair enough, some could say that is a double standard and cheating is cheating even with no legislation in place for example TRT, but I see what you mean

If people called that double standards then I would possibly just hold my hands up. Ultimately all I want is for the sport to get bigger, so when I see it getting slightly smaller this year, riddled with drug busts, with more and more friends and colleagues giving up on it, the last thing I want to see is a fighter in the biggest fight of the year being such a blatant cheat. It makes the sport look fucking terrible.

 

But yeah, if you're going to do some reading on the issue I'd highly reccommend that ESPN article I linked to. It really hammers home what efforts go into ensuring the fighters come to the cage fairly, making Anderson's actions all the more deplorable.

[Dead Mike]

edit - cba

[Ghostface1982]

Vaseline on the body makes a world of a difference. It's hard enough holding onto someone when they're sweaty(oooh)never mind with some lube being thrown into the equation.

 

It makes even more of a difference considering Sonnen's whole game plan in the first fight was the takedown/GnP, both of which could be hampered with even a little grease.

[David]

No, I'm the guy who usually preaches about money over, "sport," mentality. I've never mentioned law. There's a big difference. My point is always that for the sport to succeed (which everyone wants it to do, right?) you can't always go with the two best fighters against one another. Sometimes you have to promote more attractive fights, whether that means giving more charismatic guys bigger breaks or simply booking fights you think people would want to see rather than which fights would decisively prove who's the best in a particular division. You should know this already though, since you've been agreeing with me on this very point concerning FOX shows. I've never once championed cheats and always wanted guys who break the law to be punished accordingly. Even guys like Diaz and Chael who I like, when they get busted I just shrug because they get everything they deserve. Again, this is because I want the sport to grow and succeed.

Thanks for clarifying that, even if you did have to be a dick about doing so as usual.

 

If we're playing the, "Aren't You That Guy?" game though, aren't you that guy who described my original assessment of Anderson as, "Bang on," only to do a complete 180 when you saw it wasn't the popular opinion?

First of all, I've not done a "complete 180" at all, have I? I agreed with your post then later on I questioned the effect that the grease from his eyebrows and nose could have on such a large area like his body.

 

My question in that respect has been answered by someone who actually knows what they're talking about though, and who doesn't feel the need to come across like Dave Meltzer on his period every time he posts;

 

Vaseline on the body makes a world of a difference. It's hard enough holding onto someone when they're sweaty(oooh)never mind with some lube being thrown into the equation.

 

It makes even more of a difference considering Sonnen's whole game plan in the first fight was the takedown/GnP, both of which could be hampered with even a little grease.

I've not wavered from the opinion that Anderson should be taken to task over it, and certainly should be fined.

[The Natural]

UFC 148 might have marked the last time Chael Sonnen fights in the Middleweight division:

 

Jul 12, 2012 - Look out, UFC light heavyweights, the gangster from West Lin, Ore., might be coming for you next.

 

Just days removed from his second middleweight title loss to Anderson Silva, Chael Sonnen told FUEL TV's UFC Tonight on Thursday that he is considering moving up to light heavyweight in the near future.

 

"When you get stuck in this spot that I'm in, and again, Anderson Silva could announce his retirement any day, but there's also a major opportunity for a fresh start by simply switching weight classes," Sonnen said. "That's something that's very common historically that guy's have done, you know, my mentors Randy Couture and Dan Henderson have done that, and that's something to look at, as well."

 

Sonnen has fought at 205 pounds earlier in his career. In fact, he lost to Renato "Babalu" Sobral at light heavyweight in his UFC debut in 2005. Since then, he's fought exclusively at 185 pounds and has gone 13-5 in the process.

 

The 35-year-old Sonnen lost to Silva via second-round TKO this past Saturday night at UFC 148, and while he admitted to already thinking about the move, he said he needed a little more time to digest the loss to Silva first.

 

"Give me a couple of weeks," Sonnen said. "I'm not trying to make any claim or put myself in any corner. There's some great guys at 185. and that's not what it's about, but traditionally and historically [changing weight classes] is a very good way to get a fresh start and kind of rejuvenate your career."

 

Credit: mmafighting.com

[ajmcstyles]

I thought if he really really wanted he could get down to welterweight. If Anderson said he could I'm sure Chael could, he would be a beast at 170

[wandshogun09]

I think Chael would struggle cutting for 170. He fought at 205 for years and cutting to 185 was enough of a cut for him, trying 170 would do more harm than good I think.

 

People always seem to assume that when a guy loses he should drop a weightclass but that brings it's own problems. For some guys going up in weight might actually be better because even though they'll be fighting bigger guys they don't have to drain themselves as much and in some cases are stronger for it on fight night. Dan Henderson is a good example of this. Jake Shields too, I've always thought he was better at 185. I think Hendo and Shields lose something by cutting weight.

 

Sonnen is pretty big when he's walking around and not cutting, I think he could do alright at 205. He won't beat Jones but like with Anderson, it would be fun to watch him try. Fights with Shogun, Rashad, Little Nog, Forrest, Machida could all be very interesting.

[lambyUK]

Here's the video of Chael discussing 205 and more. An absolute superb interview.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYJ0kpNSB9U&feature=plcp

 

I still truly believe that knee was illegal and Chael confirms it hit him the face. If the knee was in the chest (at least flush) it would have knocked him down instantly winding Sonnen.

 

Whilst Sonnen moving up to 205 is discussed, I still believe he should concentrate on the middleweight division. If he goes the next notch down then all he needs to do is beat 2 more fighters to be back in the title picture.

 

There is a major difference with Sonnen and Franklin. Franklin was utterly dominated against Anderson whilst there is still an audience who would pay for a 3rd Sonnen/Silva fight.

 

Then you have the very real possibility Silva retiring meaning a champion will be crowned.

[wandshogun09]

I still truly believe that knee was illegal and Chael confirms it hit him the face. If the knee was in the chest (at least flush) it would have knocked him down instantly winding Sonnen.

 

Chael was already down though so the knee couldn't have knocked him down.

 

To be honest I've watched that knee a bunch of times now and I don't see the controversy myself. It looked like it hit all body to me every time and from every angle. It wasjust like Rashad's knee on Tito last year. Mike Goldberg jumping the gun and declaring it hit the face before even seeing a replay is the only difference. I think it's a non issue.

 

The greasing is what I have the problem with because as mentioned a few times already, that was pre-meditated and he's done it before.

[chokeout]

Is Silva taking the piss doing what he did? Yes. Is it technically illegal?, It can be argued either way.

No, it can't. It goes directly against the law I've quoted above, which makes it illegal. He put a substance on his body to gain an unfair advantage. That's against the rules. Things against the rules are illegal.

 

 

The NSAC say you're wrong

 

Kizer talking about the same thing after UFC 126

 

Nevada State Athletic Commission officials who oversaw Saturday's Anderson Silva vs. Vitor Belfort headliner at UFC 126 did not see any behavior that suggested foul play

 

Kizer, though, said it's not an issue of whether a fighter touches his face after a cutman applies a coat of Vaseline

[lambyUK]

Chokeout, you need to watch the video I posted. Chael himself confirms that the knee connected with his face. He more than anyone should know. Additionally Ariel Helwani comes out there are "some" people still debating whether the knee was legal or not. This suggests that its not clear as you suggest.

 

Helwani also states that Keith Kizer came out claiming it was the most blatant use of Vaseline use he's seen from Anderson. If it were perfectly legal to do it why would he be talking about it?