Moderators Astro Hollywood Posted February 5, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 5, 2013 The great thing is, no matter what those idiots think, it doesn't matter. Times have moved on, we're all moving forwards, and there's nothing the conservatives, Christians or whoever else can do about it but whine as they watch it all happen. When history's written, they'll all just be the 21st century equivalent of these winners -- Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 5, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 5, 2013 A-fucking-men. Almost literally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted February 5, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 5, 2013 " race mixing is communism" ? Hah. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 The great thing is, no matter what those idiots think, Â That's the interesting thing though, the people on that side of this argument aren't idiots. My parents are extremely bright, well-educated, politically savvy (my Dad once stood as an MP). They read widely and are used to debating and discussing politics and morality. And yet they feel that this move lessens their marriage, and marriage generally going forward. Â This isn't a black and white issue, as much as it seems that way to advocates of gay marriage. It's touching on something very fundamental to people's lives, particularly people with strong moral value systems. Â My parents were quite upset when I suggested that they were displaying an underlying bigotry in their differentiation of homosexual union from heterosexual union, hence the reach for incestuous relationships, paedophilia etc as examples of sexual preferences that society DOES feel are wrong, and as proscribed. Â Will social attitudes to incest and adult-youth relationships ever change in the way attitudes to homosexuality have changed in the last 100 years? It's hard to envisage how. But it's also hard to draw a firm line between them without yourself reaching for deep-seated, ingrained societal attitudes that you've been brought up on, as opposed to hard science or something irrefutable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted February 6, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2013 The great thing is, no matter what those idiots think, Â That's the interesting thing though, the people on that side of this argument aren't idiots. My parents are extremely bright, well-educated, politically savvy (my Dad once stood as an MP). They read widely and are used to debating and discussing politics and morality. And yet they feel that this move lessens their marriage, and marriage generally going forward. Â This isn't a black and white issue, as much as it seems that way to advocates of gay marriage. It's touching on something very fundamental to people's lives, particularly people with strong moral value systems. Â Â Â I think it's wrong to imply that outdated or narrower viewpoints equate to a "strong(er) moral value system". I agree that it doesn't necessarily make people "idiots", but they are still wrong. This is the bit that is wrong: Â And yet they feel that this move lessens their marriage, and marriage generally going forward. Â Objectively so. Absolutely no ifs and buts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members PunkStep Posted February 6, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2013 Will social attitudes to incest and adult-youth relationships ever change in the way attitudes to homosexuality have changed in the last 100 years? To be honest, the incest thing got me thinking. Other than apparent issues with breeding, what arguments are there to say that incest is wrong? I mean personally I squeal at the thought of it, because society has told me all my life this is very wrong and even being as open-minded as I am, I think of it as wrong. But why is it wrong? Â I'm not touching the adult-youth topic with a 50ft pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members garynysmon Posted February 6, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2013 I can't find it now, but I remember reading an interesting article that Gay rights have usually been far in advance of popular opinion on the whole. When homosexuality was legalised in Britain during the mid 20th century, it was a very unpopular move and largely went against the tide of public opinion. Whereas now, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who wants to 'outlaw' it (like that were possible in the first place). In 20 years, homosexual marriage most probably won't be an issue at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 6, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2013 Will social attitudes to incest and adult-youth relationships ever change in the way attitudes to homosexuality have changed in the last 100 years? To be honest, the incest thing got me thinking. Other than apparent issues with breeding, what arguments are there to say that incest is wrong? I mean personally I squeal at the thought of it, because society has told me all my life this is very wrong and even being as open-minded as I am, I think of it as wrong. But why is it wrong? Â I'm not touching the adult-youth topic with a 50ft pole. Â The reason why I have a problem with people using the "What's next, paedophilia and bestiality?" argument is that they completely miss the critical point: legalising homosexuality and gay marriage recognises consenting relations between two grown adults, whereas paedophilia and bestiality is engaging in intercourse with "partners" (for want of a better word) who do not, cannot, give consent. Â As for incest, the main arguments against are that it can cause severe genetic problems to offspring, and can psychologically damage families. For me, personally, the idea of thinking of any of my family as sexual makes my skin crawl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members seph Posted February 6, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2013 Will social attitudes to incest and adult-youth relationships ever change in the way attitudes to homosexuality have changed in the last 100 years? To be honest, the incest thing got me thinking. Other than apparent issues with breeding, what arguments are there to say that incest is wrong? I mean personally I squeal at the thought of it, because society has told me all my life this is very wrong and even being as open-minded as I am, I think of it as wrong. But why is it wrong? Â I'm not touching the adult-youth topic with a 50ft pole. Â The family principle involves having someone else to fall back on if your relationships (at any level) turn to shit. You'll always have family even if you have no friends or lovers. If a partnership that serious between close siblings sours completely could they really turn back at any point? even when things are really good in life for either party apart? Â Incest is mainly wrong for the breeding thing, but also because some bridges aren't meant to burn at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 I think it's wrong to imply that outdated or narrower viewpoints equate to a "strong(er) moral value system". I agree that it doesn't necessarily make people "idiots", but they are still wrong. Â That's not what I mean to suggest. You find religious people have very strong right-wrong moral systems, and the older people get generally, the more set their conceptions of right and wrong are. Â Whereas I'm more open to redefining things - I think morality is a fluid social construct. So for me, redefining marriage (which, let's not be in any doubt, is what we're doing) is entirely reasonable. But for people who've been married 50 years, or brought up in an age where homosexuality itself was illegal, or brought up under strict religious doctrine, such changes are much more jarring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 6, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2013 One of the most frequent arguments I've read or heard against gay marriage is that "marriage is defined as a union between a man and a woman". Talk about begging the question. Yet for some reason, I see so many people refusing to address the fallacy of this logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Chest Rockwell Posted February 6, 2013 Moderators Share Posted February 6, 2013 I think it's wrong to imply that outdated or narrower viewpoints equate to a "strong(er) moral value system". I agree that it doesn't necessarily make people "idiots", but they are still wrong. Â That's not what I mean to suggest. You find religious people have very strong right-wrong moral systems, and the older people get generally, the more set their conceptions of right and wrong are. Â Whereas I'm more open to redefining things - I think morality is a fluid social construct. So for me, redefining marriage (which, let's not be in any doubt, is what we're doing) is entirely reasonable. But for people who've been married 50 years, or brought up in an age where homosexuality itself was illegal, or brought up under strict religious doctrine, such changes are much more jarring. Â Â OK.. so by "strong" you actually mean rigid and set morals, as opposed to more moral. I accept that (but they're still wrong, obviously). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Yeah. I mean the Taliban have a strong moral code, it's just not one I agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members JNLister Posted February 6, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2013 Mature and thoughtful response in The Times today: Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Carbomb Posted February 6, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted February 6, 2013 Why is that title in Star Wars font? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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