New Doctor Who

[Chris B]

2 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

In wrestling terms, CHIKARA used to have a reputation for these incredibly complex and long-running storylines, where something that seemed minor would in hindsight, sometimes years later, turn out to have been the first clue to a massive event, where incidental details turned out to be so much more. But in a seminar with Mike Quackenbush, he explained that - at least in part - the way you create that illusion is just by leaving enough threads open and dropping enough ideas and phrases that could be meaningful, so that later down the line you can pick up any of those threads and it looks like everything was planned out from the beginning.

I suspect Quackenbush got this from Stephen King. The Green Mile was first published as a chap-book, and King had some commentary in each one, talking about the experience - like Dickens, he wanted to write it as it went, so the first part would be published before the book was finished. As a result, he talked about how Dickens would introduce a load of characters and plot points into the early parts of his stories, some of which could become something important, while others might not - but either way, you'd do it so that you'd always have a way out of a corner as well.

[ReturnOfTheMack]

36 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Except in this series we have two or maybe even three mysterious women to contend with, and the Doctor has actually acknowledged the existence of Susan for what I think is the first time in Nu Who, or at least a very rare mention of her

Tennant definitely mentioned a granddaughter. I think Eccleston and Smith did too, but I'm not certain. Capeldi had a photgraph of Susan on his desk in the university. 

[Factotum]

What I feared might happen from the Christmas episode, happened with these first two. It isn't for me. I always feel slightly conflicted by RTDs first run. There's some good stuff in there but I disliked large swathes of it as well.

In many ways it doesn't seem like Doctor Who. I like Ncuti as an onscreen presence but I'm not feeling him as THE character. Yes he should be different from old moper sad eyes David Tenant (who should have properly fucking regenerated rather than hanging about in case they need a rating boost) and the others, but he should still feel like the Doctor. Hopefully with a Moffat episode which might be a bit 'darker' we'll see him flourish.

Anyway, I'll watch next weeks as I always enjoyed Moff's one offs, but I must say I've lost interest in Doctor Who the last few years. And that's fine, things move on. But it reminds me of modern STAR TREK really, in that it seems to have forgotten what it sort of should be over what it thinks it should be in regards tone and story.

[DavidB6937]

1 hour ago, Factotum said:

But it reminds me of modern STAR TREK really, in that it seems to have forgotten what it sort of should be over what it thinks it should be in regards tone and story.

This is an interesting point for me. I've seen a few people say that, and I don't really see a huge shift/change in the tone of the show personally. What do you think is so different now?

[Factotum]

44 minutes ago, DavidB6937 said:

This is an interesting point for me. I've seen a few people say that, and I don't really see a huge shift/change in the tone of the show personally. What do you think is so different now?

Two things really and I'm not saying I'm right here or anything, just what I've felt.

I think a whole generation now see THE DOCTOR as some moral arbiter they should base their life around or something. That's weird and never what the character is. I think Doctor Who works when it has a mystery who's ethics are slightly questionable. He should be alien. Make it one off stories. I don't think arcs work in Doctor Who as much as we're told they need to have one. How many really paid off in the modern era? The best ending was Sean 1 and Capaldi's last series and that wasn't even an overarching ark, just a banging 2 parter.

I think the tone is also rather...silly now? I know as a show it has always BEEN silly, but that was more due to budgets etc. rather than stories. This all feels very JNT Doctor Who. That isn't just RTD, I feel Moffat went too far with that as well. I'm probably not making sense as I haven't sat down and thought about it, and it is all personal preference, but I prefer Doctor Who to be slightly edgy. I think Ncuti can do that but I fear he'll be lost among LETS HAVE A DANCING BALLOON or something.

[d-d-d-dAz]

I think this season will, ultimately, decide whether i'm an actual Doctor Who fan.

I've thought I am for quite a while. I started watching in 2010, because I was interested in Matt Smith and loved it. Honestly, those Matt Smith series are some of my favourite TV series of all time. I've laughed, cried and been furious with episodes of Doctor Who of that era like I have for nothing else. The Da Vinci one is, for me, as good as British TV gets.

During that era I went back and watched the Ecclestone and Tennant runs, and loved (some of) it. But I was projecting my enthusiasm for the character backwards, and was always slightly aware that I probably wouldn't have liked it as much if I'd come to it cold.

I didn't love the Capaldi era in the same way, but think some of the episodes match the Smith era quality (Heaven Sent/Hell Bent really stand out) and was still pretty enthusiastic. The shift into Whittaker wasn't for me, I think she was very good but thought the writing was utterly abysmal at times, and I worry that Ncuti Gatwa's era will be the same for me.

If I love it, I think i'll be confident saying i'm a Who fan who likes some things more than others. If I don't like it, I might have to face up to the fact that I just like Steven Moffat's writing combined with the performance of Matt Smith. We had Moffat at the peak of his powers, writing stuff that maybe just wasn't very Who (often overly complex, adult and dark) and Matt Smith, for me, was just a brilliant performer.

Fingers crossed I like it, then.

[Factotum]

6 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

I think this season will, ultimately, decide whether i'm an actual Doctor Who fan.

Interested to know if you watch/watched any of Classic Who? If you like the Smith era, the McCoy era might be for you. The last two seasons are fantastic and basically set the show up for what it would become in the reboot,

 

[ReturnOfTheMack]

1 hour ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

 The Da Vinci one is, for me, as good as British TV gets.

You mean the van Gogh one?

[DavidB6937]

3 hours ago, Factotum said:

Two things really and I'm not saying I'm right here or anything, just what I've felt.

I think a whole generation now see THE DOCTOR as some moral arbiter they should base their life around or something. That's weird and never what the character is. I think Doctor Who works when it has a mystery who's ethics are slightly questionable. He should be alien. Make it one off stories. I don't think arcs work in Doctor Who as much as we're told they need to have one. How many really paid off in the modern era? The best ending was Sean 1 and Capaldi's last series and that wasn't even an overarching ark, just a banging 2 parter.

I think the tone is also rather...silly now? I know as a show it has always BEEN silly, but that was more due to budgets etc. rather than stories. This all feels very JNT Doctor Who. That isn't just RTD, I feel Moffat went too far with that as well. I'm probably not making sense as I haven't sat down and thought about it, and it is all personal preference, but I prefer Doctor Who to be slightly edgy. I think Ncuti can do that but I fear he'll be lost among LETS HAVE A DANCING BALLOON or something.

I think its really interesting because, despite being the same show, I think so many fans come at it from different angles and love different things about it. To the point where we all have our own individual idea of what Doctor Who is and what we expect from it. Each regeneration and change in show runner or writer etc offers an opportunity for reinvention which has its good and bad points. Keeping things fresh is good but can also lose certain things along the way.

[CharlesTuckerTheThird]

Calling it here and now, The One Who Waits will probably turn out to be The Master.

[d-d-d-dAz]

50 minutes ago, ReturnOfTheMack said:

You mean the van Gogh one?

Him as well.

That episode was superb, though. Bill Nighy being subtly brilliant throughout, the delicate way they tackled the idea that mental health issues don't have simple fixes... just wonderful business.

Edited May 14 by d-d-d-dAz

[Vamp]

4 hours ago, Factotum said:

Two things really and I'm not saying I'm right here or anything, just what I've felt.

I think a whole generation now see THE DOCTOR as some moral arbiter they should base their life around or something. That's weird and never what the character is. I think Doctor Who works when it has a mystery who's ethics are slightly questionable. He should be alien. Make it one off stories. I don't think arcs work in Doctor Who as much as we're told they need to have one. How many really paid off in the modern era? The best ending was Sean 1 and Capaldi's last series and that wasn't even an overarching ark, just a banging 2 parter.

I think the tone is also rather...silly now? I know as a show it has always BEEN silly, but that was more due to budgets etc. rather than stories. This all feels very JNT Doctor Who. That isn't just RTD, I feel Moffat went too far with that as well. I'm probably not making sense as I haven't sat down and thought about it, and it is all personal preference, but I prefer Doctor Who to be slightly edgy. I think Ncuti can do that but I fear he'll be lost among LETS HAVE A DANCING BALLOON or something.

See, I'd say a lot of that has always been in Doctor Who.

3rd Doctor was annoyed at the Brigadier for blowing up the Silurians. 4th Doctor decided he didn't have the right to kill the daleks off. Those are the 2 most obvious and probably influential examples. 

The 1st Doctor was probably a bit more alien, but pretty much all of the Doctors we've had since have followed Troughton's lead more than Hartnell's. And there's the general fan theory that the Doctor has been somewhat humanised by his companions, especially by Barbara and Ian. 

As for silliness, I'd argue the stuff with the Land of Fiction, the Chase, the Candy man, Delta and the Bannerman, have all been just as silly or even sillier than New Who. That wasn't just because of the budget. 

[Jazzy G]

The Mind Robber is one of my earliest memories of watching through classic Doctor Who. I mean I had Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy episodes on sometimes, but they'd just be on. I did watch the Paul McGann movie as well, but remember sometime in the 90s they started showing some classic episodes on a Friday night, I think after the Simpsons on BBC 2 because I remember watching it at my Gran's, and I used to stay at my gran's almost every weekend. 

[Factotum]

14 hours ago, Vamp said:

See, I'd say a lot of that has always been in Doctor Who.

He's nuanced which is what makes it interesting but he was always 'alien' It's what Matt Smith managed to do so well until Moffat kept having him say the word 'SEXY' a lot. Baker is frankly terrifying at times with how he acts. He has morality but he also doesn't if that makes sense. I enjoy that alien side. I don't like the BEST FWENDS or I LOVE YOU arcs new Who under RTD has taken.

[Vamp]

See, I'd argue all of the worst arcs are Moffat's. The impossible girl arc is the worst thing anyone has ever written.