AEW Saturday Collision

[RedRooster]

4 minutes ago, Hannibal Scorch said:

That’s the actual truth. This has been brought up before. 

I’m well aware of that, but it shouldn’t make it on to the show itself as a plot thread. Aside from everything else, it makes no sense - what’s the idea here? That everything else is fake, but this is real?

[sukhy]

3 hours ago, RedRooster said:

 

Kevin Kelly was atrocious once again - describing CJ Perry as ‘a woman from Miro’s past’, rather than his wife; claiming Christian was jealous of Darby because he’ll never be as loved as him and other terrible calls. I’d switch him out for Jim Ross any day.

What about his orgasm when Bryan mentioned Zack Sabre Jr? 

[69MeDon]

First episode of Collision that, rather than watching it with breakfast, I downloaded it and then got distracted by Starfield. Figured I'd take a look here and see if it's worth watching.

Clearly not. I'm not sure why they couldn't keep the same vibe Collision had, even with Punk gone. Something different to Dynamite, in some ways better than Dynamite just because it was doing things. This show will be Rampage 2 now. Rampage 1 is at least only an hour!

Edited September 10, 2023 by 69MeDon

[Infinity Land]

The field for the World Title Eliminator isn't anyone's first choice, but I feel this is the first tournament that actually flows well. Instead of stretched higgledy-piggledy over 3 weeks. It will be over Wed/"Fri"-Sat-Wed.

They're striking the right balance between Roderick Strong and Samoa Joe. As a final there's some interest in who will win. I'm thinking Joe but then it's a case of what will MJF be doing at WrestleDream? I don't see Strong as a PPV challenger and another ROH tag title match would be lacklustre. Maybe being optimistic, but with all the neck issues in the storyline I still see Kyle O'Reilly waiting in the wings to be introduced somewhere.

The two semis were solid. There was a lot going on with Strong/Darby match with Lucha & Christian, the match itself and then AR Fox & Nick Wayne. 

Disappointed that Statlander was announced as just "in action" with no opponent on the pre-show graphics. I've quite enjoyed the last couple of weeks since Wembley where they've at least kept the women's division busy with the tag/trios matches. They are more enjoyable than the blatant winner in singles matches. So it was nice to see it was there to mask the return of Jade Cargill. Last year's Grand Slam was rumoured to be the two of them for the TBS title. I guess it would be fitting that it happens this year. However, after the initial appearance all I could think was Jade needs a reset. She got a star reaction and it was watered down with Mark Sterling popping up and back after "her" title. Been there done that.

Danielson v. ZSJ finally happening   While keeping Ricky Starks in the mix with something to do after that strap match. It's a Forbidden Door vibe where AEW storylines are sidelined for the NJPW dream matches. Maybe Starks v. Danielson II happens at Grand Slam or after WrestleDream.

BCG with another showcase. Shame Jay White was withdrawn last minute. The Andrade angle to it is...something. Early in Collision's run the thinking was a return to LFI due to feuding with House of Black. Now he's in a segment with another faction. The idea will be floated again despite having no involvement in the Lucha Underground inspired LFI vignettes. Maybe he was scouting the Luchadors to recruit someone for his own group?

Moxley v. Andretti and Fenix v. Angelico. Ideal world I would have scrapped the 2nd match and had either face Moxley instead of Andretti.

There were too many vignettes and backstage segments for people not involved in tonight's show. Especially tired of Hobbs going back to his book schtick. There should have been some follow up with Jade. Even if it was Mark Sterling dismissing the interviewer with no questions for my client.

Mox v. Big Bill and Samoa Joe v. Strong set up for next week's Dynamite. Time used to set up Kingston v. Claudio at Dynamite Grand Slam. The show's starting to feel connected to AEW instead of the island of misfit toys.

[BomberPat]

10 hours ago, RedRooster said:

I wasn’t a fan of the Eddie Kingston angle at all - the feud is over Claudio not doing the job before joining WWE? That’s Russo-esque.

Claudio did a good job of making it not about that when he brought up the handshake - their heat, real or otherwise, goes back to before Claudio left for WWE (at least when he actually signed - there was an earlier time when he left CHIKARA for WWE but visa issues meant his deal fell apart, and that might be where things actually turned sour between them), and Claudio brought up Eddie owing him a handshake.

Not to get all The Lore about it, but in CHIKARA Claudio beat Eddie in a match where the loser had to shake the winner's hand and say he respected him. Eddie didn't do it, but instead told Claudio that he was a snake and not to be trusted, and that he'd fooled the audience into thinking he was the good guy, so Claudio still wants that handshake. Later that night, Eddie was proved right when Claudio turned heel and was revealed as one of the leaders of the BDK, the newest big invading heel stable du jour.

[Tsurutagun]

Its almost as if they don't want to mention CHIKARA because they don't want to give publicity to the company and their owner

[RedRooster]

13 hours ago, BomberPat said:

Claudio did a good job of making it not about that when he brought up the handshake - their heat, real or otherwise, goes back to before Claudio left for WWE (at least when he actually signed - there was an earlier time when he left CHIKARA for WWE but visa issues meant his deal fell apart, and that might be where things actually turned sour between them), and Claudio brought up Eddie owing him a handshake.

 

Eddie literally said his problems stemmed from Claudio "not doing business on the way out" - regardless of what anyone said next, they still strayed into Russo-style bollocks.  It's a shame too, as they didn't need to. 

This is kind of separate, but one of the most frustrating things about AEW these days is that it's really challenging to follow without an in depth knowledge of the outside wrestling world. During the early days, I used to watch it with me wife - a non-wrestling fan - and she was really into it; with the Hangman/Omega, Jericho/MJF, Punk/MJF and Moxley/Kingston storylines all really sucking her in. Then the first Forbidden Door happened, and - whether it was down to Cody's departure, Khan changing approach or something else - the quality dropped slightly. The company certainly still has its moments, but its storytelling is a lot less consistent than it once was. 

[LaGoosh]

I can't think of any story that needs weird shoot style nonsense from the past less than Kingston vs Claudio. Kingston/Claudio is almost the perfect feud as the characters are so opposite of each other that of course they naturally hate each other. You don't even need to add any twists/turns etc. You've got the arrogant, elitist, well educated, successful European super athlete vs the working class, out of shape, heart on his sleeve New York street thug. Why wouldn't they be natural enemies? You don't need any more than that to justify them feuding.

[Loki]

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

This is kind of separate, but one of the most frustrating things about AEW these days is that it's really challenging to follow without an in depth knowledge of the outside wrestling world.

Yeah, I find this too.  And not just the outside wrestling world, you need to have an in-depth knowledge of ROH history to follow AEW programming.  And you need to watch ROH tv (somehow) to understand what's happening with AEW tv.

I think it's fun when AEW bring in wrestlers from outside the organisation, and being part of a larger wrestling world is cool - but everything you need to understand the storylines should be internal to the company.   "Here's an old Japanese guy" is fine but him referencing an NJPW feud from 18 months ago isn't.

Honestly, Khan's buying ROH has been the worst thing for AEW long-term.  It's muddied the waters, taken focus off the AEW titles, distracted the booking and led to some right old jobbers appearing on tv instead of the actual AEW roster.

[gmoney]

Regardless of whether they had real heat in CHIKARA a million years ago, it's astounding that this is STILL what they're basing this feud on. I couldn't give a beetle's bollock about anything that happen in CHIKARA at the time, let alone think it's worth referencing now. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by gmoney

[Infinity Land]

I for one am shocked to discover that two guys that have had beef with each other since Claudio's debut, would have stemmed from something that preceded their time in AEW together.

 

[BomberPat]

12 hours ago, Tsurutagun said:

Its almost as if they don't want to mention CHIKARA because they don't want to give publicity to the company and their owner

They don't need to mention CHIKARA and I'm not suggesting that they should; how they have handled it is fine; alluding to a past between them, and a grudge that's clearly been held for years. You don't need to know the specifics but, if you do, the story they're telling now is consistent with their past interactions in other companies, and I think that's a good thing. 

1 hour ago, RedRooster said:

Eddie literally said his problems stemmed from Claudio "not doing business on the way out" - regardless of what anyone said next, they still strayed into Russo-style bollocks.  It's a shame too, as they didn't need to. 

I wish Eddie hadn't said "not doing business", but despite us knowing what that means, it doesn't look like they're dwelling on that, and it could easily be spun to mean "he didn't give Eddie a match on his way out", which is also true. 

Again, you don't need to know the CHIKARA backstory for this to make sense, but it adds colour - both Eddie and Claudio were in the 12 Large Summit in 2011, to crown the company's first Grand Champion. Claudio was the first choice to win the whole thing, but signed with WWE, so they settled on Eddie winning instead. But Claudio and Eddie never wrestled in that tournament, so Eddie never got the "passing the torch" moment, or the chance to prove himself against Claudio one last time. It doesn't have to be about Claudio not putting him over, "doing business" could be about giving Eddie a promised match, or an opportunity, or just leaving the independents in a better position than when you found them, and that's been something Eddie has been hounding Claudio about all along. 

If their feud does spin off into nothing but worked shoot bullshit, I'll gladly eat my words on this one, but it's not the heart of the story, or even of that promo segment, at all.

The key to that promo was Claudio claiming that he doesn't remember what their problem with each other was. Eddie's the emotional one, he lacks Claudio's self-control and discipline, and that's why Claudio doesn't respect him - he doesn't work hard enough, he doesn't get in shape, he doesn't carry himself the way that a star wrestler "should". Eddie gets angry, he holds grudges for more than a decade, he just can't let these things go. But when Claudio let slip that Eddie still owes him a handshake, that's him letting the mask slip - he doesn't just remember, he's still holding on to a petty grievance from fifteen years ago, despite everything he's achieved since. Beneath the surface he's just as "bad" as Eddie, and that's what Eddie has hated about him this whole time - he's a hypocrite, he has people fooled, and Eddie Kingston thinks he's the only person who can see through it, and it drives him mad. As much now as it did in 2009, and in 2009 he was proved right about it!

[gmoney]

10 minutes ago, Infinity Land said:

I for one am shocked to discover that two guys that have had beef with each other since Claudio's debut, would have stemmed from something that preceded their time in AEW together.

 

Stemming from fine, Still being the only thing talked about? Absurd. 

[BomberPat]

I think a feud between two people who have known each other for almost 20 years, but spent a decade of that apart, stemming from long-festering issues between them in their past is both more interesting and more believable than anything AEW bookers could have come up with to sell this match otherwise. It's a far bigger match for having that history behind it than it would be without. When you have more than a decade of history to help paint your picture, why wouldn't you use it?

I also don't think that it's the "only thing being talked about". In the Collision promo, Eddie said something like, "this is the problem with guys like you and Bryan". Because it's as much an ideological conflict between Eddie Kingston's approach to wrestling and the Blackpool Combat Club's approach to wrestling. It's as much what @LaGoosh said of the two being very archetypal natural enemies. It's Eddie having a chip on his shoulder, about the same things that have bled through every Eddie Kingston programme in AEW - people telling him that he doesn't belong, that he doesn't fit, that he doesn't look like a wrestler, even as he's proving himself by going to NJPW and winning their titles. It ties into Kingston's history with Moxley, that he feels aggrieved that Mox has chosen the BCC over him. 

It's multi-faceted, and that's why it works so well. Yes they could have told this story without acknowledging that they have a past. but why would you, when "holds grudges for an unreasonably long time" is one of the most consistent parts of Eddie's character in AEW? When the story so far could very easily be interpreted as the babyface being the unreasonable and petty one and the heel being the one who just wants to move on with his life, you need the moment of showing Claudio to be a hypocrite, to show that beneath the surface he's at least as petty and as capable of holding on past grievances as Eddie is, because it's that dishonesty and hypocrisy that makes him the bad guy in this story. And you can't have that dishonesty without their history.

But at no point does it feel like this is AEW saying "you need to watch ten years of CHIKARA and ROH and IWA:MS to understand this story", because they're telling you that story on TV. The entire promo was Eddie and Claudio telling you that this what they're fighting about. Every time they're on-screen together, the commentators tell you that they have a history, that they have problems dating back over a decade. And it doesn't need to be about whether they had "real heat" in CHIKARA, because even if you do want to go back and watch all of that stuff, everything they're talking about played out on-screen and in-character, it's not about behind-the-scenes drama, it's about these two having been consistently the same characters throughout their entire career, and that is both brilliant and, most of all, believable.

[Infinity Land]

3 minutes ago, gmoney said:

Stemming from fine, Still being the only thing talked about? Absurd. 

Was it the only thing talked about?

Two really close friends. They lived together, worked together. They were like family. Claudio ditches Eddie, choosing his career over friendship.  He knows exactly what Eddie's upset over and why. Does he confront the issue or apologise for his part in it? No. Instead he acts all aloof, smug and superior. Pretends he doesn't have a clue what Eddie's problem is. Pushing Eddie's buttons all along the way intentionally making it worse.