Kunts Christmas

[Keith Houchen]

I don’t believe Tanya Smith is a hitler loving nazi for a second. But those pics, her Jews did 9/11 and her complete lack of accountability makes her image of some anti racist campaigner not very convincing. Especially when she attacks and paints a lifelong anti racist campaigner as racist. 
 

And the sooner Baddiel and his racism fucks off, the better. It says a lot about the state of the country when that gormless prick is lauded as some sort of intellectual. A man educated beyond his intelligence indeed. 

[SuperBacon]

5 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

man educated beyond his intelligence indeed. 

That's a great line.

What really, REALLY fucked me off about him (and I'm sorry to derail here) was when he had his "Y word" campaign about Spurs fans using the word Yid.

This is probably for another thread altogether and we'll all have an opinion on this I'm sure, but his utter refusal to engage with with club, our Jewish and non Jewish supporters, context, history etc and his argument beyond "Stop using it" was pathetic. Will only ever see his side of the argument. Twat.

When someone asked him "What about when rival fans come to WHL and imitate the sound of gas hissing?" his reply was "Well I've never witnessed that so can't be sure it's happened"

By all means, have a debate but perhaps take on board nuance once in a while?

[Tommy!]

The "I wasn't trying to impersonate Hitler" is more insulting than anything, because they clearly are. Someone being young and stupid is forgivable, assuming I'm stupid less so. 

[BomberPat]

28 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I don’t believe Tanya Smith is a hitler loving nazi for a second. But those pics, her Jews did 9/11 and her complete lack of accountability makes her image of some anti racist campaigner not very convincing. Especially when she attacks and paints a lifelong anti racist campaigner as racist. 

That's the thing, isn't it? It's the action of a sheltered white kid thinking that they're being funny by doing the most shocking thing they can think of. Photos like that are two-a-penny.

But she hasn't remotely acknowledged or engaged with that, she's spun it into somehow making herself the victim - the photos were stolen from a private account, she only behaved like that because of "trauma" (the favourite catch-all explanation of the TikTok generation), it's society's fault not hers (she actually says "all of us feel shame for what was socially acceptable in our youth" at one point), and then the "I know how the photos look and can be interpreted"; how else should I interpret a T-shirt that says "I love Hitler"? 

There is value in saying "I was a complete prick when I was younger". Not "I behaved that way because of trauma". Not "because society thought these things were acceptable then". Not "I can see how you could interpret it as...". Just, "I did and said these things. It would be wrong to say or do them now, it's wrong now. I was an idiot, and I've learned, and I hope you can accept that, but I understand that if you don't, I still have work to do". But instead it's, "I've never been a racist or an antisemite, I'm the least racist person, everybody knows that".

It's the central failing of bourgeois liberalism - everything comes down to how activism or politics centres on you. The extent of her commitment to anti-racism or combatting antisemitism or anything else falls down at the exact moment that she can personally be held to account. That's not just her, that's almost the entirety of that kind of political commentator and self-styled ally and activist - zero tolerance and zero nuance until it's them and their mates being taken to task, at which point it's "well, actuallys" and "yeah, buts" all the way down. No ideology, no commitment, no backbone. That's why it's not uncommon to see "liberals" pivot to right-wing free speech wankery the moment they're held to account. It's all a game, and the moment one side stops being fun (because they're held to the standards they pretend to find important) they'll swap to the other side, so long as they always have someone to agree with them.

Baddiel's no better, to bring it back to him. He doesn't actually care about "Jewface" from any principled position, it's purely "if I'm not allowed to do blackface, people shouldn't be allowed to play Jews, and I wouldn't mind people playing Jews if they still let me do blackface". Everything comes down to the self.

Edited February 7, 2023 by BomberPat

[Keith Houchen]

9 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

That's a great line.

Dennis Skinner said it in the House Of Commons about George Osborne and I’ve treasured it ever since. 

 

2 minutes ago, BomberPat said:

Baddiel's no better, to bring it back to him. He doesn't actually care about "Jewface" from any principled position, it's purely "if I'm not allowed to do blackface, people shouldn't be allowed to play Jews, and I wouldn't mind people playing Jews if they still let me do blackface". Everything comes down to the self.

Indeed. And of course it doesn’t apply to his friends. Eddie Marsan is playing Mitch Winehouse in an Amy Winehouse film but that’s ok because Landlord Eddie is his mate and has a tree planted on stolen land. At the risk of being called antisemitic, I think Baddiel doesn’t so much have a problem with Jewish racism being considered less than other forms of racism, but he doesn’t like that it’s not considered the most important form of racism and should be front and centre of any campaign. He absolutely sees a hierarchy of racism in my opinion, and antisemitism is the one that matters more than any to him (understandable) and should to everyone else too. 

[BomberPat]

I'm not sure it's even that. Obviously antisemitism is very important to him, and understandably so, but I think the extent to which he has become a tireless campaigner about it is a combination of opportunism and the world's longest commitment to whataboutery - whole swathes of his book include things that basically amount to, "I get told I can't be antiracist because I did blackface, but no one tells Louis Farrakhan his views on anti-black racism are undermined by his antisemitism", or "I got criticised for wearing blackface to make fun of a black footballer, but no one criticises non-Jewish actors playing Jews". They are interesting, and valid, discussion points on the nature of prejudice, but with him you get the feeling that the grievance often begins at "I was criticised for", and he fills in the rest from there.

My problem in general isn't really about David Baddiel living out his Monkey Dust character - "I don't see why, as a famous comedian, I'm any less qualified to talk about issues of institutional prejudice than a trained professional" - as it is the entire weight of a media and political establishment being put behind him and his fairly flimsy, though well-intentioned book, as if nobody had ever expressed or written about these ideas before. It's particularly galling, given that many of this same establishment were Very Concerned About Antisemitism in 2016, that they don't seem to have a single frame of reference written before 2021.

Deborah Lipstadt's "Antisemitism Here And Now" was written in 2019, and has some extremely problematic sections in how it equates Judaism, Zionism and the State of Israel, and effectively suggests that any anti-Zionist Jew is either hiding their true allegiances to protect their lefty credentials, or is guilty of internalised antisemitism (both POVs that would be considered extremely antisemitic if uttered by a non-Jewish person, I feel, as they effectively echo the old canard that Jews are duplicitious because of their divided loyalties), and relies on a lot of weird strawmen, but it is still a far more valuable work on the topic than Jews Don't Count, yet you don't see Deborah Lipstadt invited on to talk shows to discuss the issues, even though she was literally fighting holocaust deniers in court while Baddiel was blacking up on Fantasy Football. 

It's the enshrining of him as the Token Jewish Expert that I find as insulting and demeaning as anything, really.

[Tommy!]

Are we sure there wasn't a perfectly square bit of dirt on the camera lens?

[Jonny Vegas]

I hate to be a cynic as to how much Baddiel actually *really* cares about the subject but is there any documented evidence of him speaking out loudly and publicly against anti-semitism prior to him being criticised for not only the blackface incident but for failing to apologise to Jason Lee for well over a decade?

Baddiel was in his late 20's when they were doing the skits and couldn't even use the daft kid excuse, he knew full well what he was doing but so long as it got him a laugh and furthered his career, he couldn't care less.

It wasn't just the blackface element the entire thing was horrifically racist and hugely negatively impacted his career and livelihood. 

I don't remember much about Fantasy Football Club but I'd imagine with that platform raising the issue of anti semitism on a show he co-created, wrote, hosted and performed on would be well within his capabilities...unless of course as per my cynical nature it only became an issue he wanted to talk about publicly following his own misgivings?

As per Keith, at the risk of having myself labelled anti semitic, there were huge electronic billboard on the expressway in Glasgow last month saying Jewish people were 500 times more likely to be victims of racial abuse than any other race.

I'm not sure what specifically the criteria is but I've spent the majority of my life in Coventry and Glasgow and sadly seen a lot of racism in both places but I certainly wouldn't have thought that until I saw the billboards.

Obviously I don't want to see it happening whatsoever but 500 times more than anyone else seemed steep.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Jonny Vegas

[Tommy!]

46 minutes ago, Jonny Vegas said:

there were huge electronic billboard on the expressway in Glasgow last month saying Jewish people were 500 times more likely to be victims of racial abuse than any other race.

Genuine question, does Glasgow have a big Jewish population?

[Jonny Vegas]

I'd say I've definitely met more people who told me they were jewish in Glasgow than I did in Coventry but neither were places I was aware of having a significant jewish community.

[Keith Houchen]

1 hour ago, Jonny Vegas said:

m not sure what specifically the criteria is but I've spent the majority of my life in Coventry and Glasgow and sadly seen a lot of racism in both places but I certainly wouldn't have thought that until I saw the billboards.

That’s kind of the point. There are many phrases and expressions in common parlance that have antisemitic connotations. Gentiles tend not to notice because we aren’t on the receiving end. Words like scapegoat and Svengali have anti Jewish origins for example. There is outright antisemitism but there is hidden antisemitism too, where the person saying it may not know it’s antisemitic but the Jewish person does. 
 

I do think not being surrounded by a culture or race has an impact on the level of understanding though. Manchester has a large Jewish community so when I moved here I interacted with Jewish people for the first time. It was in a bank too!! But seriously, and for another discussion, it’s why I resent being sent to a faith school as it created a bubble. 

[SuperBacon]

26 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

 

I do think not being surrounded by a culture or race has an impact on the level of understanding though. Manchester has a large Jewish community so when I moved here I interacted with Jewish people for the first time. It was in a bank too!! But seriously, and for another discussion, it’s why I resent being sent to a faith school as it created a bubble. 

Interestingly, even though I grew up on a very multicultural estate, and indeed have members of my own family who have mixed heritage, I had never, ever seen a Jewish person as there just wasn't a large number of them in South West London.

So when I went to Tottenham for the first time, I was fascinated and asked my Dad why everyone was wearing "bowls" on their heads. Something he likes to remind me of approximately 30 times a year.

Going back to the point of hidden prejudices, I also grew up with a large traveller community and thought nothing of using the words "pikey" "do-as-you-likey" "diddicoy" "tinker" etc until I actually worked in a role where part of my job was to liaise with the traveller community and realised just how hurtful these words were. 

Lost my point slightly. Erm, just be nice to everyone innit.

Edited February 7, 2023 by SuperBacon

[Keith Houchen]

3 minutes ago, SuperBacon said:

I had never, ever seen a Jewish person

How did you know? I think that goes back to the point of hidden antisemitism. I know what you mean about seeing observant Jews, but I think for me that’s what separates it from religious hate. You can’t be an atheist Christian, but you can be an atheist Jew. 

[SuperBacon]

13 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

How did you know?

Good point. I was only about 5 the first time I went to Spurs so I probably didn't know whether I had or not. I just remember not having seen one with a skull cap or hair curls before, and it was because there were so many people with them that fascinated me.

Tottenham was still a very Jewish area in 1990, whereas its not really any more.

[SuperBacon]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:43 PM, Jonny Vegas said:

Supertanskiii who got a mention in this thread pre Christmas has been caught out after photos have surfaced of her doing nazi salutes, decorating herself with a little Hitler moustache and standing next to a man wearing a t-shirt with I ♡ Hitler written onto it in mud at a festival.

Her main defence's are that it definitely wasn't a hitler reference and that the photos are from her personal facebook and she didn't give permission for them to be shared, which is a baffling stance to take in my eyes.

I did consider creating a new thread for wannabe celebrity grifters but thought this was best placed here.

Blamed her response and doubling down etc on being neurodivergent by the way.

I have my opinion on using that as an excuse, but would be interested to see what others who are neurodivergent (diverse? Is that right?) or have people close to them who are feel about that being, in my opinion, weaponised.