The Official UKFF RAW thread (part 2)...

[d-d-d-dAz]

12 hours ago, Supremo said:

Anyway, it all turned to shit almost immediately. The PROMO BATTLE with SHOOT COMMENTS commenced and there isn’t a small enough measurement of time to determine how quickly they all fucked it off entirely. Son returned to Minecraft on his iPad. Daughter asked to go to bed. I’ve never felt more vindicated in my hatred for this genre of promo. Watching in real time how potential fans floated away like dust because they haven’t got a fucking clue what you’re shouting about. Having now watched it back, thank God they did give up when they did. I’d have had to build an entire PowerPoint presentation to explain it all.

See, I disagree with this (partially).

On one level, I don't think your product can always be written in such a way as it appeals to new fans and every point is a potential clean slate, on boarding point. They have to have the ability at times to reward those people who do watch regularly, who do invest their time into knowing things. Without that you might onboard new fans at one end of the conveyor belt, but you'd have a load more falling off the other end. Also, the product would have to be very shallow, with very few layers or depth.

That said, I think it's a balance. Post pipe bomb, every prick and their goldfish were doing shooty promos and it was utterly unwatchable, having to watch talentless hacks talk about being underused. So I think you need to use it sparingly, for maximum effect and with the sort of talent who can carry it off.

And I think in this instance they've done that. You can't accuse Cody 'Blue Peter' Rhodes of not also putting the leg work in to attract new fans.

In terms of the genre of promo, I want to agree with you. I hate them... 95% of the time. But then when they're done right, in the right hands, they can be thrilling and - like I say - give those hardcore fans a little emotional depth and reward for the time they've put in. The pipe bomb is a good example, or Heyman shouting 'because Triple H doesn't want to work Tuesdays' or - my favourite of the promo battle genre I think - Eddie spitting fire at Punk. The Eddie promo even had some of the same beats as this, where he said something like 'so what, I'm a bum because I didn't make best friends with the booker?'.

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

See, I disagree with this (partially).

On one level, I don't think your product can always be written in such a way as it appeals to new fans and every point is a potential clean slate, on boarding point. They have to have the ability at times to reward those people who do watch regularly, who do invest their time into knowing things. Without that you might onboard new fans at one end of the conveyor belt, but you'd have a load more falling off the other end. Also, the product would have to be very shallow, with very few layers or depth.

 

 

That's totally fine, but this was the opening segment, to be fair. If anything should be an onboarding point, it's this. 

That said, they've probably already lost people by having John Cena be the bad guy, so what do I know?

[Carbomb]

Have to agree with daz as to his first point. When your TV show is weekly, not every segment has to be or even can be an on-ramp. A lot of that is evidenced by the characters of the wrestlers: if you were to ask "What is Triple H? What is Cody Rhodes? What is The Rock? What is John Cena?" you couldn't give a simple answer because they've been on TV so long and have grown with the fans who know their story, so don't need to be able to answer.

[d-d-d-dAz]

11 minutes ago, Duke said:

That's totally fine, but this was the opening segment, to be fair. If anything should be an onboarding point, it's this. 

That said, they've probably already lost people by having John Cena be the bad guy, so what do I know?

I don't think it's that simple either, I don't think the opening segment each week has to be super accessible to everyone, that would put them into a very strange booking pattern.

Wrestling produces so much content, and is increasingly consumed in multiple different ways across different platforms, that I'm not sure putting a 'first timers' ring fence around the opening segment makes much sense.

I think it's more about over the course of your overall output are you doing enough to keep the top of the funnel active, whilst also rewarding those further down the funnel and eventually monetising those people that are really engaged with what you're doing.

I actually think balance is something WWE have historically struggled with. They're guilty of finding something (like shoot promos post-Pipe Bomb) and running it into the ground, completely suffocating the overall idea and ruining the shows. I'd say one of the things they've been better at recently (even notwithstanding the mostly awful Wrestlemania build), is being able to be a bit more fleet of foot, showing different angles and providing ways in for new people whilst also rewarding lifers. 

I don't want to turn it into one of those threads, but it's why AEW is brilliant at it's best. They get that balance of celebrating pro wrestling, rewarding long time fans but also presenting awesome athleticism or whatever that everyone can enjoy.

Obviously none of that is specifically about the Cena/Rhodes promo which I guess is just a personal matter for where you set the bar for quality, but I think the point I'm making is that I don't think the concepts of shooty promos or booking at the hardcore fans occasionally is necessarily a bad thing, and might actually be a good thing in terms of monetising your audience.

Edited April 2, 2025 by d-d-d-dAz

[air_raid]

11 hours ago, Jazzy G said:

Have Cena at some point turn face between now and next Mania.

Oh no. If there’s one thing Cody avenging a big defeat doesn’t need, it’s splitting the audience. He’s the hero, nobody else.

[d-d-d-dAz]

1 minute ago, air_raid said:

Oh no. If there’s one thing Cody avenging a big defeat doesn’t need, it’s splitting the audience. He’s the hero, nobody else.

They're definitely ending up a super tag team. I'm an atrocious fantasy booker, but I'd be almost willing to bet money that the cadence will be something like;

- Cena wins at Mania with Rock's help, looks conflicted and doesn't look happy with the post match beat down.

- Cody wins the rematch after Cena rejects Rock's assistance. Handshake after the match.

- After a cooling off period, Cena comes back and saves Cody from a Rock and/or goons beat down.

- Cody/Cena as some sort of Captain America/Superman dream team beat a team of Rock's making, babies get thrown in the air, granny's are kissed, world is saved.

[Supremo]

Watching Bianca and Rhea make their entrances on this show, in that gear, looking a billion dollars, arguably the two biggest success stories in the history of their Developmental System? It’s nothing short of promotional malpractice what they’ve done to them with this Wrestlemania feud. You’d think someone was trying to sabotage them on purpose.

I don’t think there was an easier feud to write. A bigger open goal. “These two are fucking brilliant, absolute superstars, you love them both, so let’s see who’s the best.” Instead, it’s became such a tangled mess that it’s almost as if they don’t know how to make it work themselves. Like even they know it’s such a bad idea that they don’t want to actually announce the match and make it official.

Remember in school, when the English Literature teacher would give the class a premise, and each student would write their own version of it? That’s what this Biance/Iyo/Rhea thing feels like. Every week we get someone else’s rubbish attempt at creating a logical route to creating this Triple Threat match.

First Rhea was a sulky, moany prick, trying to cry her way back into the match, but that was shit, so they abandoned it. Then Rhea signed a contract that wasn’t hers, but that was shit, so they abandoned it. Now Bianca has double DQ’d both of them, but that was shit, so they claim it’s still a one-on-one with Bianca facing Iyo.

How many weeks are left? How many more rubbish tropes can they try to justify why this deeply flawed match is happening? Maybe a Bianca vs. Rhea singles match, which ends in a double pin? A three-way tug-of-war for the belt? A shampoo contract offered to all three women?

An absolute fucking mess. One of the worst Mania feuds of all time. “What if Debra was The Rock’s manager,” levels, only it gets worse from there every single week.

Still better than Charlotte Flair vs. Tiffany Stratton, mind.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

I don't think it's that simple either, I don't think the opening segment each week has to be super accessible to everyone, that would put them into a very strange booking pattern.

 

I mean, it doesn't have to, you just open with a match.

But it does feel like the booker has a particular fondness for long 20 minute opening promo segments. I wonder why?

I don't feel strongly about this particular point, but I do think that we're only a couple of months into them being on Netflix, on a different timeslot, in the run up to their biggest show of the year, each of which are decent reasons to be considering new viewers a bit more on this particular week. Unlike Tigey Ricky, my family wouldn't watch this crap unless I paid them, so it's not a big thing

 

[d-d-d-dAz]

3 minutes ago, Supremo said:

Watching Bianca and Rhea make their entrances on this show, in that gear, looking a billion dollars, arguably the two biggest success stories in the history of their Developmental System? It’s nothing short of promotional malpractice what they’ve done to them with this Wrestlemania feud. You’d think someone was trying to sabotage them on purpose.

I don’t think there was an easier feud to write. A bigger open goal. “These two are fucking brilliant, absolute superstars, you love them both, so let’s see who’s the best.” Instead, it’s became such a tangled mess that it’s almost as if they don’t know how to make it work themselves. Like even they know it’s such a bad idea that they don’t want to actually announce the match and make it official.

Remember in school, when the English Literature teacher would give the class a premise, and each student would write their own version of it? That’s what this Biance/Iyo/Rhea thing feels like. Every week we get someone else’s rubbish attempt at creating a logical route to creating this Triple Threat match.

First Rhea was a sulky, moany prick, trying to cry her way back into the match, but that was shit, so they abandoned it. Then Rhea signed a contract that wasn’t hers, but that was shit, so they abandoned it. Now Bianca has double DQ’d both of them, but that was shit, so they claim it’s still a one-on-one with Bianca facing Iyo.

How many weeks are left? How many more rubbish tropes can they try to justify why this deeply flawed match is happening? Maybe a Bianca vs. Rhea singles match, which ends in a double pin? A three-way tug-of-war for the belt? A shampoo contract offered to all three women?

An absolute fucking mess. One of the worst Mania feuds of all time. “What if Debra was The Rock’s manager,” levels, only it gets worse from there every single week.

Still better than Charlotte Flair vs. Tiffany Stratton, mind.

It's 5D chess.

By showing you how bad a triple threat match can be, the Roman/Punk/Rollins thing looks boss in comparison.

[d-d-d-dAz]

3 minutes ago, Duke said:

I mean, it doesn't have to, you just open with a match.

But it does feel like the booker has a particular fondness for long 20 minute opening promo segments. I wonder why?

My first username on here over 20 years ago (fuck...ing... hell) and on efeds before that was 'hhhrox'. I'm a child of the Cerebral Assassin, a result of The Game... 20 minute opening promo segments are my ultimate blindspot.

[Supremo]

17 minutes ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

It's 5D chess.

By showing you how bad a triple threat match can be, the Roman/Punk/Rollins thing looks boss in comparison.

Regarding the Roman/Seth/Punk match, I heard an idea from Michael Hamflett of WhatCulture (the much missed @NEWM on here) that was so fucking good I nearly cried.

He suggested that when Paul Heyman and Roman Reigns explained to CM Punk that the match was the Main Event of Night One, Punk should have told them to shove it up their arse. This isn’t the main event he wanted. None of them deserve it, whereas Jey Uso does. He’s happy to beat the shit out of both of them, but he’d rather earn his Wrestlemania Main Event next year, rather than be gifted it by a bunch of patronising pricks.

Or just cry and thank everyone, whatevs.

[d-d-d-dAz]

2 minutes ago, Supremo said:

Regarding the Roman/Seth/Punk match, I heard an idea from Michael Hamflett of WhatCulture (the much missed @NEWM on here) that was so fucking good I nearly cried.

He suggested that when Paul Heyman and Roman Reigns explained to CM Punk that the match was the Main Event of Night One, Punk should have told them to shove it up their arse. This isn’t the main event he wanted. None of them deserve it, whereas Jey Uso does. He’s happy to beat the shit out of both of them, but he’d rather earn his Wrestlemania Main Event next year, rather than be gifted it by a bunch of patronising pricks.

Or just cry and thank everyone, whatevs.

That would take a level of confidence in his triceps that he can't possibly have.

[Lorne Malvo]

23 minutes ago, Supremo said:

Regarding the Roman/Seth/Punk match, I heard an idea from Michael Hamflett of WhatCulture (the much missed @NEWM on here) that was so fucking good I nearly cried.

He suggested that when Paul Heyman and Roman Reigns explained to CM Punk that the match was the Main Event of Night One, Punk should have told them to shove it up their arse. This isn’t the main event he wanted. None of them deserve it, whereas Jey Uso does. He’s happy to beat the shit out of both of them, but he’d rather earn his Wrestlemania Main Event next year, rather than be gifted it by a bunch of patronising pricks.

Or just cry and thank everyone, whatevs.

I'd absolutely love this idea if he said Charlotte Flair instead of Jey Uso, just to see the meltdown online.

[simonworden]

2 hours ago, d-d-d-dAz said:

They're definitely ending up a super tag team. I'm an atrocious fantasy booker, but I'd be almost willing to bet money that the cadence will be something like;

- Cena wins at Mania with Rock's help, looks conflicted and doesn't look happy with the post match beat down.

- Cody wins the rematch after Cena rejects Rock's assistance. Handshake after the match.

- After a cooling off period, Cena comes back and saves Cody from a Rock and/or goons beat down.

- Cody/Cena as some sort of Captain America/Superman dream team beat a team of Rock's making, babies get thrown in the air, granny's are kissed, world is saved.

Arguably with a limited shelf life they've got a fair few feuds/matches that sell themselves as big time main events. 

Top tier saucy = Roman, Punk, Orton, Cody rematch

Probably Decent = Rollins, Jey Uso

An ok filler = LA Knight, AJ Styles 

That's just who he has previous with that fits on the face side. Send Cody off on a magical mystery tour with Jacob Fatu and then circle back round to Cody in November for Survivors. 

Of course they won't do this.

[Daaaaaad!]

1 hour ago, Supremo said:

He suggested that when Paul Heyman and Roman Reigns explained to CM Punk that the match was the Main Event of Night One, Punk should have told them to shove it up their arse. This isn’t the main event he wanted. None of them deserve it, whereas Jey Uso does. He’s happy to beat the shit out of both of them, but he’d rather earn his Wrestlemania Main Event next year, rather than be gifted it by a bunch of patronising pricks.

Honestly, this is what I expected to happen when he started to ‘thank’ the Tribal Chief. “I don’t want your hand outs”. Ironically it continues to prove what kept getting quoted back at him from that Triple H promo all that time ago - he’s happy with change, if it’s change that benefits CM Punk. I also think back to the interview he did where he said WrestleMania 30 was Daniel Bryan’s time, just like WrestleMania 29 should’ve been his time. Isn’t this year supposed to be Jey Uso‘s time?