Vamp Posted July 1, 2013 Share Posted July 1, 2013 That match is great. The segment before has some killer lines too. "I'll be the one who looks like Elvis" and "Eric Young, you have a license to kill" are both great lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted July 1, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 1, 2013 Lee Scott vs Sid  Has more ever been accomplished with less? A clothesline, two military presses, a whirlybird and a powerbomb. Breathtaking. Showing the kids how to work there, Sid. It's not how much you do, it's when, how and why you do it.  Waltman was great at laying out matches, Vince made Jericho go to him to learn how to work the wwe way.  Here's my favourite "Kid as yardstick" story. HBK on Shane Douglas :  Shane came in with a big reputation from ECW. He was a dirt sheet hero. He talked to the sheet guys, and they built him up like he was the second coming, but he had little talent. He wrestled Kid when he first came in, and Kid came to the back and said, "Isn't going to happen." If you can't work with Kid, you can't work period. Kid was the wrestling barometer. Everyone that came in the door worked with him so that they could be evaluated. The fact is, Douglas was no good. We tried to help him. Hunter came up with some material and angles with the guy, but he was worthless.  "If you can't work with Kid, you can't work period" is one of my favourite lines from any wrestler about another wrestler, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Green Posted July 1, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 1, 2013 The Cage match with the elbow drop! Again Waltman made him look a star, before he started sucking off Orlando Jordan in skits or whatever he spent the time doing. There really is a lot to be said for top 2 minute matches though. Lee Scott vs Sid, Chris Masters and Drew McIntyre managed to have a 90 second cracker on Smackdown one week! That match would easily make my top ten favourite matches of all time. Definitely the best squash match I've seen and, like Air Raid said above, accomplished so much with so little.  Also agree on the Eric Young praise. He and Bobby Roode are the only two TNA workers I can think of who would really fit in well in the WWE. Can't see it happening but a man can dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted July 14, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 How you getting on with this? Getting anxious to read more choices! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tibbs Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Kobashi vs Misawa is one of my all-time favourite matches, and particularly holds a special place in my heart as the first big Puroresu main event I ever watched. I read about the match in that magazine that was a precursor to Fighting Spirit (Total Wrestling?) and they were branding it a must-see classic so I got it on a comp from a trader. It's safe to say my jaw dropped. I'd been following Ring of Honor since the year before so was familiar with the more workrate-based matches but this was like nothing I'd ever seen. The stage spot had me standing up out of my seat and I fell for every single false finish despite knowing the result. It just absorbed me completely and turned me into a fan of Japanese wrestling for life. Â Totally agree! That match was and remains the best pro wrestling match I have ever seen. Kobashi and Misawa were is a league of their own when it came to pro wrestling. Even the commentary added to the drama and I can't understand a word of Japenese! Â Shane came in with a big reputation from ECW. He was a dirt sheet hero. He talked to the sheet guys, and they built him up like he was the second coming, but he had little talent. He wrestled Kid when he first came in, and Kid came to the back and said, "Isn't going to happen." If you can't work with Kid, you can't work period. Kid was the wrestling barometer. Everyone that came in the door worked with him so that they could be evaluated. The fact is, Douglas was no good. We tried to help him. Hunter came up with some material and angles with the guy, but he was worthless. Â Shane had proved he could work with Terry Funk (who is a far better worker than the Kid) that should have been good enough. Was it not just the fact that the clique were a bunch of dicks and if they didn't like you, you were fucked from the start! The WWE(F) took a guy who was a solid worker with a character years ahead of his time who could cut awesome promos (and I mean awesome and not relying and swearing as he did later on in his career) and gave him a character so boring, so mundane that he lost any passion he had before he even got there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted July 14, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 Shane had proved he could work with Terry Funk (who is a far better worker than the Kid) that should have been good enough. Was it not just the fact that the clique were a bunch of dicks and if they didn't like you, you were fucked from the start! Â Not really. Douglas was, by all accounts, a bit of a work-shy twat who rubbed everyone up the wrong way by complaining about being injured all the time and refusing to work with a sore back on a European tour, which meant HHH had to go double duty despite being injured himself. Â Personally I never saw anything interested or good in Douglas. I always thought he was boring and shit. I was glad that he didn't last long in WWF because he bored the crap out of me back then as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tibbs Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Not really. Douglas was, by all accounts, a bit of a work-shy twat who rubbed everyone up the wrong way by complaining about being injured all the time and refusing to work with a sore back on a European tour, which meant HHH had to go double duty despite being injured himself. Personally I never saw anything interested or good in Douglas. I always thought he was boring and shit. I was glad that he didn't last long in WWF because he bored the crap out of me back then as well.  Looking at what Douglas has done and said in recent years that may be true. However, during his first run with ECW he had some great matches with Sabu, Terry Funk, The Sandman and Mikey Whipwreck (actually that may have been when he came back). For a look at how awesome his was on promo you should watch his post match interview after the Night The Line Was Crossed. Actually, the whole angle is superb (Paul Heyman is gold) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted July 14, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 Shane had proved he could work with Terry Funk (who is a far better worker than the Kid) that should have been good enough. Was it not just the fact that the clique were a bunch of dicks and if they didn't like you, you were fucked from the start! The WWE(F) took a guy who was a solid worker with a character years ahead of his time who could cut awesome promos (and I mean awesome and not relying and swearing as he did later on in his career) and gave him a character so boring, so mundane that he lost any passion he had before he even got there! You aren't getting the context of what made Douglas so shite. If the 123 Kid would have worked with him on an indy show with all the time in the world and the objective was to play to a smart arse bunch of fans where he could establish his gimmick by swearing a lot, maybe Kid and Douglas would have torn the house down. Douglas couldn't adapt to the big time style of TV wrestling, though. I bet if Terry Funk worked Douglas in front of a WWF crowd on a WWF Supertars taping, that match would have been shite as well. Â Your opinion on Douglas' work would be relevant if he was Chris Candido or Bam Bam Bigelow. But Douglas made a career flowing his WWF run of choking on the big occasion and looking completely small time. Douglas had the run of the place in WCW with Vince Russo sucking his bell, yet he couldn't get over to any degree. His 99-2000 WCW was a proper embarrassment. He's also ran three promotions (XPW, Hardcore Homecoming and Extreme Rising) and killed the towns with his clueless ideas of what gets over. Douglas was fucking rubbish when he wasn't swearing his loaf off. He could never make the step up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members air_raid Posted July 14, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 I'll give Douglas credit : I thought he did an excellent heel World Champion promo and really made you believe that he was convinced he was the best, although this may have been because he was an arrogant twat who actually believed he was the best rather than being a good promo. And he was such an unlikeable cunt, that you always wanted to see him get beaten by a Dreamer or a Taz. But that was probably because he was an unlikeable cunt, and not that he was excellent at playing heel. Â Other than that, the only thing from Douglas' much-vaunted spell(s) in ECW that I thought was remarkable, was that he had a really long title reign which meant there was a good rub to give someone for ending it. But he wouldn't have had that, I wouldn't have thought, if he hadn't spent half of it injured. Ultimately it didn't mean a whole let anyway, since his Waterloo came at the hands of Taz, who ended up telling ECW "I'm off" within five months or so. THANK GOD they had Mike Awesome to turn to, and everything turned out OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted July 14, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 Mike Awesome was similar to Douglas I thought. That run Awesome had as ECW was so great, you'd be forgiven for thinking he was the second coming of Goldberg or some shit. When he got to WCW, something just didn't seem right with him there. Even before they made him shag fat women and dress like a bloke from Austin Powers. He sounded like a cretin. Hogan even did the job for him on one episode of Nitro. Hogan had a great match with him. Taking powerbombs from him and all sorts. Â Actually, I'm doing a bit of a turn as I'm typing this. He wasn't as bad as Douglas was in the big leagues. If they'd have built Awesome and gave him to win against Hogan on a PPV show, that would have been a pretty big deal. The thing with Awesome was, he needed protecting a lot. Awesome was everything good about what Paul Heyman brings to booking wrestling. Awesome had a lot of weaknesses, but you wouldn't now it with Heyman in charge of his career. Â Did Awesome ever get those pants he ordered with Awesome down both sides of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Tibbs Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 You aren't getting the context of what made Douglas so shite. If the 123 Kid would have worked with him on an indy show with all the time in the world and the objective was to play to a smart arse bunch of fans where he could establish his gimmick by swearing a lot, maybe Kid and Douglas would have torn the house down. Douglas couldn't adapt to the big time style of TV wrestling, though. I bet if Terry Funk worked Douglas in front of a WWF crowd on a WWF Supertars taping, that match would have been shite as well. Your opinion on Douglas' work would be relevant if he was Chris Candido or Bam Bam Bigelow. But Douglas made a career flowing his WWF run of choking on the big occasion and looking completely small time. Douglas had the run of the place in WCW with Vince Russo sucking his bell, yet he couldn't get over to any degree. His 99-2000 WCW was a proper embarrassment. He's also ran three promotions (XPW, Hardcore Homecoming and Extreme Rising) and killed the towns with his clueless ideas of what gets over. Douglas was fucking rubbish when he wasn't swearing his loaf off. He could never make the step up.  By the time Douglas his WCW in 99 he was beyond washed up through the injuries he had suffered in ECW. Douglas was broken down and finished by the end of 96 as a good worker, so by the time he hit WCW he was never going to show any of the ability he had in 93/94/95. Remember also, he was the tag team partner of Ricky Steamboat in WCW in 93 and they had some blinding matches with the Hollywood Blonds in which Douglas carried his share of the load. I would say that WCW was big time wrestling. Steamboat Austin and Pillman (and Steamboats opinion I would hold higher regard than the Kid and Triple H 94 version) never complained about his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted July 14, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 By 1995 he was far different as well. In the early 90s he never came in with a reputation of being God knows what. His performances were really rotten in the WWF and totally wasn't up to that road schedule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted July 14, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 #84 - Diesel and Shawn Michaels vs Bret Hart and The Undertaker - WWF House Show, Madison Square Garden, 17/03/96 Â Â WATCH IT HERE and HERE Â Â Â WHY SHOULD YOU WATCH IT? Â Cleetus.Van.Damme; Â Â Right at the peak of WWE's brief revival at the gates in early '96, this main event was the first time a house show at MSG had sold out since Hogan left the company. And it's no wonder people came to see it, a PPV-level match not just in stature, but quality as well, that helped further both the main events for Wrestlemania, and saw Diesel turn heel on Shawn to set up the next PPV. Â Â WHAT DO I THINK OF IT? Â Another tremendous choice here from Cleetus, who also provided us with the very well received Hogan - Hansen. Another i was glad to see pop up, it's a match I've always wanted to see, fondly remembering the ending angle playing out on TV and being fascinated by the idea of this match. Yet, I've never thought to seek it out in the youtube age. But now i have seen it and thoroughly enjoyed it. Back in '96, when they showed Diesels turn and Michaels reaction 'I'm going to kick his 7 foot ass' on an episode of Raw, i was, as mentioned, fascinated by the idea of this match. Because it had Hitman and Undertaker teaming up for one. That seems like nothing now, but back then to me the idea of that was massive. But also, it had Undertaker against Shawn, which as far as i was aware had never really occurred. And it was the 2 big Mania matches in one. Bret, Undertaker and Shawn were basically the guys for me at this point in time (and really were in general anyway) but they were the ones i really cared about watching most and Big D wasn't far behind. The whole dynamic just seemed rather awesome. The match doesn't much disappoint either. Often, i find watching matches live in person, watching Japanese or Mexican footage or watching fancam stuff it becomes quite apparent just how vital and how much commentary can add to a match. Not always though and this is an example of where it isn't really missed. The crowd are massively into this right from the off and it kicks off to a flying start, Undertaker mid-entrance suddenly switching to pelting to the ring as if he's just been barbequed gets the match off to an electric start and the heated brawl between him and Diesel all over the joint (which we miss a fair bit of unfortunately) is great and gives the impression their feud had a whole lot more heat than i remember it having. I enjoyed their match at 'Mania XII but this almost makes you feel they could have had something even better. For the most part we're basically left with a preview of the IronMan main event and the first half of the match is two separate things going on. Bret and Shawn have, as you'd expect, fantastic chemistry. I'd just recently began watching WWF again around this time, having missed about a year of it and getting Sky in for Crimbo '95 and tuning into Raws just after the Survivor Series of '95. I'd missed it greatly and fell straight back in love with it, overjoyed i had all this wrestling to watch at my disposal. I was happy to see Bret had just regained the title, having long been my favourite. I really do think Bret was just incredible throughout the 90's but only just beginning to really hit his peak and realise his potential around this time and when he returned later in the year after his hiatus. As Cleetus mentions, this almost feels like a PPV style match anyway in the way it all plays out, which the big angle at the end only adds to. That was all great booking really, Diesels turn was logical, plus it had to end without a decisive finish really and i love the way Big D carries himself in this match, total 'i'm the shit, i'm tellin' ya' not giving a shit, out for himself Diesel that he'd gradually grown into since losing the belt. The aftermath is lovely too, Undertakers sit-up making a great moment and continuing the tone he and Diesel had had prior. Imagine this would have been great to experience live in the Garden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members wandshogun09 Posted July 14, 2013 Paid Members Share Posted July 14, 2013 I was on about that match in the Best of MSG thread on here the other week. I too was fascinated by this match after seeing the brief clips on WWF TV at the time. For many of the reasons as above, especially the Taker-Michaels first time ever collision. I'd been kind of obsessed with a possible Taker-Michaels match ever since KOTR '95 where, as a naive 10 year old, I thought that was bound to be the final (yeah, the way the brackets were it would have to be the semi final but I didn't realise that at the time). Imagine my disappointment when we wound up with Mabel vs Savio Vega. Â I am definitely going to watch this match tomorrow. Someone linked me to it in the MSG thread and I didn't get around to it. It sounds like a cracker as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members ShortOrderCook Posted July 16, 2013 Author Paid Members Share Posted July 16, 2013 #83 Owen Hart vs. the 123 Kid - WWF, King of the Ring '94, 19/06/94 Â Â Â WATCH IT Â Â Â WHY SHOULD YOU WATCH IT? Â Â Listen to Ian; Â The match comes in at just under 4 minutes. There Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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