Random thoughts thread v2 *NO NEWS ITEMS*

[the_mole]

Why don't they try some of their decent level stars on part time deals, Jeff Hardy/Hardy Boyz & Rey Mysterio would be perfect for that. While not massive stars the likes of John Morrison, Carlito & MVP have a bit of history and would be decent for short two month runs twice a year. These guys along with Jericho should be kept away from Wrestlemania though, that should ve kept for your massive stars, full timers and celebrities.

 

WWE doesn't have a stupid model for TV, it's one of their biggest money makers, plus unlike house shows and old PPVs its a consistent income. I'm sure most would like to see less TV but that cost them huge sums of money.

Edited January 18, 2016 by the_mole

[UK Kat Von D]

I wonder why they can't do 'normal' episodes of Raw and Smackdown with the promos for the English speaking markets (which must be the vast majority) and play pre-recorded matches over the top for the non-English markets?

Yeah guess that would work just as well with Raw if it's being edited after being shown live anyway

 

Why don't they try some of their decent level stars on part time deals, Jeff Hardy/Hardy Boyz & Rey Mysterio would be perfect for that. While not massive stars the likes of John Morrison, Carlito & MVP have a bit of history and would be decent for short two month runs twice a year. These guys along with Jericho should be kept away from Wrestlemania though, that should ve kept for your massive stars, full timers and celebrities.

 

WWE doesn't have a stupid model for TV, it's one of their biggest money makers, plus unlike house shows and old PPVs its a consistent income. I'm sure most would like to see less TV but that cost them huge sums of money.

Relying on old stars instead of creating new ones is why Wrestlemania is looking so shit this year. Hiring a bunch of part timers from the past is just a temporary fix and won't be any use to them in five years.

 

TV numbers are on the decline. Without some sort of change to the TV model it will continue to do so. The quantity of TV being made isn't the issue, the issue is the quality

[the_mole]

Kevin Owens Vs Jeff Hardy would be a decent month-2 month feud, then he could have won that leading to a IC match with someone like Ambrose which might have been fresh for Mania.

 

Ambrose could be busy wrestling say MVP & Carlito and going over them back to back leading to the Mania match.

 

You have put 2 younger guys over a few veterans and have made the IC Title a bit more special when the big match happens at Mania.

 

The WWE have been bringing back part timers like Jericho and making sure he's on Mania, when I doubt he adds anything to the card, he might add something to a Raw taping or a B PPV, while your proper full time roster can hopefully be placed in top matches on the big PPVs.

 

The Raw & Smackdown TV Shows could be a lot better obviously and lengh is a big part but the WWE are never scaling back unless USA Network say so, as the money is too much to give up

Edited January 19, 2016 by the_mole

[UK Kat Von D]

I'm not denying there would be some decent matches by bringing these guys back, but it doesn't do anything to fix the issue of them not creating stars anymore.

 

How many stars have RVD and Jericho created? Jericho was used in the way you are describing when he put over Fandango at Wrestlemania. Means fuckshit if the follow up is terribly written

[air_raid]

Jericho has no value with which to make anyone and hasn't for ages. He's lost to everyone. On paper, Kevin Owens beating a guy that won as many titles as Jericho should have mattered, but it didn't. People that skipped watching that Network show probably don't even know that Owens beat him, and those of us that did watch it just shrugged. Kofi, Evan Bourne, Fandango, Bray..... over the years Jericho has done so many jobs to people outside the main event bracket that he's nowhere near that spot himself. Beating him doesn't matter.

[tiger_rick]

Jericho has no value with which to make anyone and hasn't for ages. He's lost to everyone. On paper, Kevin Owens beating a guy that won as many titles as Jericho should have mattered, but it didn't. People that skipped watching that Network show probably don't even know that Owens beat him, and those of us that did watch it just shrugged. Kofi, Evan Bourne, Fandango, Bray..... over the years Jericho has done so many jobs to people outside the main event bracket that he's nowhere near that spot himself. Beating him doesn't matter.

 

It doesn't matter precisely because he's done what's being suggested here hasn't he? Come back for short runs to provid some name value. Just like RVD. They come back and the company know they're only in it for the short haul so they use them to lose and then over time each return makes them less of a star. Each win and each loss means fuck all and each shitty catchphrase get less of a reaction.

 

Of all the names mentioned, I only think Jeff Hardy has any real value beyond a nostalgia pop. And I'm not convinced that it's worth the hassle to move numbers ever so slightly. It's not good for him either.

 

 

The thing is they have endless rematches on live TV and their roster seems really small too. It makes no sense. Among sorting out all the booking and TV format problems, they should double the size of the roster.

That strikes me as an easy potential fix in terms of stagnation, but presumably it doesn't make financial sense. They're only running two tours, so that's only X amount of spots (maybe 40?). Doubling the roster size means doubling the downside wage bill (or at least doubling the middle/lower end of it) and that's a lot of wrestlers who would only be working the Monday and/or Tuesday. And realistically, there likely isn't much financial gain in the midcard being more varied. The key segments would still be Reigns/Rollins/Ambrose/Cena etc. Having sixteen options to face Ziggler rather than putting him against Tyler Breeze, for example, might not be worth adding all those other people to the roster.

 

It's ultimately a massive gamble that, without the creative overhaul, could well result in spending millions on a wider range of less-frequent Dolph Zigglers. The goal of the company is to make money rather than get 100% positive feedback on social media -- if they can do both, great, but if they can't, their bottom line is the more important of the two.

 

How did the old New Talent Initiative work? I don't remember much about it and it probably wasn't very successful, but were those guys all given main roster contracts or was it a trial basis thing? They have got loads of wrestlers in NXT that aren't going to get the Shield/Wyatts push but could be spreading out the TV time on Raw.

 

Good debate this. I think about it sometimes when I watch old WCW and see they have a roster full of people who could take a smashing week to week to avoid doing too much damage to name guys. The thing with WWE is that they don't put the effort into their current roster, possibly for the reasons being mentioned in the overseas TV discussion going on in another thread. Adding in a load of new guys could obviously stop rematch hell from happening every week but if it's still nondescript guy A fighting nondescript guy B for no particular reason then what's the point in the added expense.

 

There are a ton of things they need to fix with their current TV before they even consider this. Lack of character depth, refusal to do anything outside of the four walls of the arena to humanise their characters and a lack of understanding of how drama works. That one really gets me. They've gone off traditional bookers over the years to obsess over hiring TV writers but these cunts couldn't write TV to save their lives. 99% of all Raw and SD shows feature no hook for the next show whatsoever. They shouldn't be allowed out of the room unless they can demonstrate that they've done something to make people tune in next week. Watching old Nitros (1995) and they were fucking great at that.

Edited January 19, 2016 by tiger_rick

[AshC]

Johnny B. Badd/Marc Mero was quality. Can't think of anyone who gets more flak despite being pretty darn good in the ring and super charismatic to boot. Also, his JBB entrance gimmicks were ace.

[digitalversicolor]

Johnny B. Badd/Marc Mero was quality. Can't think of anyone who gets more flak despite being pretty darn good in the ring and super charismatic to boot. Also, his JBB entrance gimmicks were ace.

I didn't realize he actually cropped up in TNA in like, 2004/2005, with the Johnny B. Badd gimmick, I always assumed WCW and by that point WWE would have owned the rights to it? Because didn't Vince want to bring him in as Johnny B. Badd in the 90's and they couldn't due to the character being owned by WCW, I remember that story from one of Cornette's interviews, think it was the Timeline one.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

You have to keep updating your trademark every few years. And WWE just didnt re-up on the Johnny B Badd name, so Mero took it.

[simonworden]

 

Johnny B. Badd/Marc Mero was quality. Can't think of anyone who gets more flak despite being pretty darn good in the ring and super charismatic to boot. Also, his JBB entrance gimmicks were ace.

I didn't realize he actually cropped up in TNA in like, 2004/2005, with the Johnny B. Badd gimmick, I always assumed WCW and by that point WWE would have owned the rights to it? Because didn't Vince want to bring him in as Johnny B. Badd in the 90's and they couldn't due to the character being owned by WCW, I remember that story from one of Cornette's interviews, think it was the Timeline one.

 

Actually I heard Vince brought him in as he thought he was getting Johnny B. Badd and of course the gimmick was WCW's so he couldn't even rip it off at the time

[garynysmon]

I get the feeling that a few WWF wrestlers resented Mero for being the first wrestler to sign a guaranteed money contract with Vince. I remember Foley mentioning something along those lines in his first book.

[air_raid]

I get the feeling that a few WWF wrestlers resented Mero for being the first wrestler to sign a guaranteed money contract with Vince. I remember Foley mentioning something along those lines in his first book.

 

Yeah there was some amazing bitterness from Mick there along the lines of not believing Mero was worth more to the company than him, and that even spilling over into him rejecting a little run with Mero into Mania 13. He made real sure to start every complaint with "I like Marc but" just so we know he's not a vindictive twat.

 

I mean, ultimately he was clearly right about having more value to the WWF than Mero, but yeah... it's Foley, so it's hard not to look back and go "belt up, Sadsack."

[tiger_rick]

It's almost as if Mick is obsessed with money!

 

I've never been big on Mero. When he first came into the WWF I wasn't really watching (not through my own doing) so when I caught up with 1996 PPVs on VHS releases much later I didn't know a lot about him and although I was impressed with his work, Sable was much more interesting. I've only seen Johnny B. Badd in hindsight and it does nothing for me whatsoever. Again, good work but a really lame gimmick that was never taking him anywhere until Vince became desperate and threw money at him.

 

As a smart arsed fan, I have a bit of appreciation for the way he rebuil himself and refreshed his character with the heel turn and the boxing based work. I'd be lying if I said I had any interest in it at the time though - other than to wonder when Sable was going to be shot of him.

[gadge]

 

Jericho has no value with which to make anyone and hasn't for ages. He's lost to everyone. On paper, Kevin Owens beating a guy that won as many titles as Jericho should have mattered, but it didn't. People that skipped watching that Network show probably don't even know that Owens beat him, and those of us that did watch it just shrugged. Kofi, Evan Bourne, Fandango, Bray..... over the years Jericho has done so many jobs to people outside the main event bracket that he's nowhere near that spot himself. Beating him doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter precisely because he's done what's being suggested here hasn't he? Come back for short runs to provid some name value. Just like RVD. They come back and the company know they're only in it for the short haul so they use them to lose and then over time each return makes them less of a star. Each win and each loss means fuck all and each shitty catchphrase get less of a reaction.

 

Of all the names mentioned, I only think Jeff Hardy has any real value beyond a nostalgia pop. And I'm not convinced that it's worth the hassle to move numbers ever so slightly. It's not good for him either.

 

The thing is they have endless rematches on live TV and their roster seems really small too. It makes no sense. Among sorting out all the booking and TV format problems, they should double the size of the roster.

That strikes me as an easy potential fix in terms of stagnation, but presumably it doesn't make financial sense. They're only running two tours, so that's only X amount of spots (maybe 40?). Doubling the roster size means doubling the downside wage bill (or at least doubling the middle/lower end of it) and that's a lot of wrestlers who would only be working the Monday and/or Tuesday. And realistically, there likely isn't much financial gain in the midcard being more varied. The key segments would still be Reigns/Rollins/Ambrose/Cena etc. Having sixteen options to face Ziggler rather than putting him against Tyler Breeze, for example, might not be worth adding all those other people to the roster.

 

It's ultimately a massive gamble that, without the creative overhaul, could well result in spending millions on a wider range of less-frequent Dolph Zigglers. The goal of the company is to make money rather than get 100% positive feedback on social media -- if they can do both, great, but if they can't, their bottom line is the more important of the two.

 

How did the old New Talent Initiative work? I don't remember much about it and it probably wasn't very successful, but were those guys all given main roster contracts or was it a trial basis thing? They have got loads of wrestlers in NXT that aren't going to get the Shield/Wyatts push but could be spreading out the TV time on Raw.

Good debate this. I think about it sometimes when I watch old WCW and see they have a roster full of people who could take a smashing week to week to avoid doing too much damage to name guys. The thing with WWE is that they don't put the effort into their current roster, possibly for the reasons being mentioned in the overseas TV discussion going on in another thread. Adding in a load of new guys could obviously stop rematch hell from happening every week but if it's still nondescript guy A fighting nondescript guy B for no particular reason then what's the point in the added expense.

 

There are a ton of things they need to fix with their current TV before they even consider this. Lack of character depth, refusal to do anything outside of the four walls of the arena to humanise their characters and a lack of understanding of how drama works. That one really gets me. They've gone off traditional bookers over the years to obsess over hiring TV writers but these cunts couldn't write TV to save their lives. 99% of all Raw and SD shows feature no hook for the next show whatsoever. They shouldn't be allowed out of the room unless they can demonstrate that they've done something to make people tune in next week. Watching old Nitros (1995) and they were fucking great at that.

Surely there's loads of lower NXT talents that could work the losing end of a 4 minute squash. Not the Baron Corbin types who are NXT TV mainstays. The ones you might see on NXT TV once every 8 weeks or less would surely gain valuable experience without being damaged for when they develop into an NXT TV character.

 

Example : they released Solomon Crowe (and not without reason) - but he could have lost to Tyler Breeze on Smackdown in 4 minutes when Breeze was new. Breeze would have won against a familiar opponent and therefore - hopefully - have impressed in doing so. Breeze could then have cut a promo on Dolph Ziggler who he was feuding with. Instead Breeze vs Ziggler happened 6 times in a month or something and Breeze has dropped down to Superstars/Main Event level.

 

That's just one developmental guy, one new main roster guy and the established upper midcarder. They have plenty more.

[air_raid]

Tyler is an amazing microcosm of WWE's current booking problem. Gets a big win over Ziggler at Survivor Series, makes me think "Crikey, that's a pretty decent scalp." Loses back to him the next night, and just like that he's just another guy where it doesn't matter who beats who, because everybody beats everybody.

 

As a smart arsed fan, I have a bit of appreciation for the way he rebuil himself and refreshed his character with the heel turn and the boxing based work. I'd be lying if I said I had any interest in it at the time though - other than to wonder when Sable was going to be shot of him.

 

Nailed it. At the time I was bored stiff of "Marvelous" as a heel. I'm not sure why for like two weeks when he came back as serious-faced boxer with the TKO for a finish, I thought he could easily get back to the I title with his badass character as a serious babyface just knocking shit out of heels. Then they turned him, and I turned off quickly. Looking back, however, he's pretty hilarious to watch. And you have a little mark out moment on the rare occasion he busts out the Marvelocity for old times' sake.

 

But yeah, Sable. She owned the screen when she was on it. But then, I was 16 at the time.