Minor news items that don't deserve a thread

[IANdrewDiceClay]

All the old blokes were headcases. The likes of the Steiners had proper college wrestling backgrounds. They weren't just playing wrestling. That was back when proper tough guys out of University would join wrestling. Now they try MMA. Undertaker, Goldberg, Angle, The Rock, Lesnar, Batista, they've all said they would have done MMA over wrestling if it was accessible when they were breaking in. The Steiners would definitely have been the same as well. The likes of Austin, Bret Hart, Orndorff and Hogan did amateur wrestling and/or football in high school. They might have even had a go at it in their younger days. They were a different breed back then. Even the short lads had to handle themselves. You had to be. If someone was going to start on Dynamite Kid or Davey Boy Smith, they had to handle themselves.

 

Nash told the story of his fight with Samoa Joe after Turning Point 2007 recently on his shoot interview. Joe buried Scott Hall on the mic so, apparently, Nash said "was that your words or Russo's" and Joe said "it was mine", so Nash dropped him. Joe ran towards him again so Nash slapped him a second time putting him on the floor. Joe then apologised to the dressed room the following day.

Edited February 11, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Dirty Eddie]

The whole environment for finding out who the current hard-nuts might be is non-existent these days. Knocking fuck out of marks who pushed their luck was fair enough back in the day, but any lower card WWE guy these days who tried to "prove his rep" would get arrested or sued, and WWE would be hugely pissed off. Taking all the coke and other drugs off the table means less fights and crazy antics in general from wrestlers too these days.

 

It's great they'll all probably live longer and everything, but it's all pretty dull compared to the 80s and 90s.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

We live in the era of wrestlers marking out because they got a retweet from that fat bloke of Saved by the Bell and putting fake belts in frames like they actually won them. Its a different business.

[King Pitcos]

The key thing is that a lot of wrestlers now grew up fans at times when it was reasonably cool. Whereas nearly everyone in pro wrestling twenty years ago and more basically fell into fake gay wrestling through failing at real sports, had to be battered into respecting it (and batter the next failed athlete to fall into it into respecting it), and had to be a hard nut because of insecurities and kayfabe. They all had chips on their shoulder stemming from making a living doing something they'd be ashamed of if you stripped all the secret-handshake bullshit from it. Whereas now, most wrestlers are sound enough about their job being rolling around in swimming trunks pretending to fight.

[Mr Butternut Squash]

Yeah, the guys in the business today are a different breed for sure, and I'm all for seeing the back of the days of nutters dying in their mid 40s. I just really don't see what difference it makes in a wider/business sense though. Anyway, I doubt the likes of Cena, Swagger, Henry, Sheamus, Cesaro, Byran, Ziggler, Brodus etc. aren't handy.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Mr Butternut Squash

[PowerButchi]

I think a lot of it is that a lot of people want to see massive and mean hardnuts. That's why Mark Henry drove Smackdown ratings, IMHO, and why people turned off their TVs when CM Punk came on as a face.

 

Mr Average wants his wrestlers big, colourful and believable. When you see a wrestler you should be thinking "That cool motherfucker would eat me alive". You don't get that aura from half as many people these days, and I'd say that it's to the detriment of the company. Really, who'd you want to see? Zack Ryder continuing to be the most massive nerd ever, or Scott Steiner killing shit?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Anyway, I doubt the likes of Cena, Swagger, Henry, Sheamus, Cesaro, Byran, Ziggler, Brodus etc. aren't handy.

Doesn't matter if they are handy. They dont give off the vibe that they are. Cena and Henry (and Sheamus to an extent) do, and they do business. There's a lad off here expecting a retweet of a picture he drew of the companies biggest heel. He ain't doing that shit, and nor should he (no offensive to the poster obviously). They should be presenting themselves as stars, not bowing down to the demands of retweets and putting belts they won on Smackdown on the wall. When I grew up I knew fuck all about the Ultimate Warrior. I used to think "Hulk Hogan wears cut off blazers when he goes to weddings". I never imagined Randy Savage walked about in real life without a weightlifting belt. Look at Brock Lesnar. When he walks out people go "fucking heel". People believe in him. If you don't build an infrastructure around you babyfaces and heels and make them look strong and if the wrestlers themselves dont present themselves in public like they are above the fans themselves. People are desperate to believe in characters. The idea that people watch wrestling and don't want to believe and invest in the storylines and characters is ridiculous. I never watch wrestling unless I believe in the guy I am watching it for. If you replaced Brock and Cena last year with Swagger and The Miz, would it be the same? Would it fuck. Because I believed in the story.

Edited February 11, 2013 by IANdrewDiceClay

[Mr Butternut Squash]

I think a lot of it is that a lot of people want to see massive and mean hardnuts. That's why Mark Henry drove Smackdown ratings, IMHO, and why people turned off their TVs when CM Punk came on as a face.

 

That may be true in part but I think you're underestimating the power of strong booking. If Henry was booked like every other heel, cowardly and getting cheap victories at every turn then I doubt he would have pushed ratings so much. The bigger problem for Punk is that he's simply too unlikeable to be a successful babyface.

 

Mr Average wants his wrestlers big, colourful and believable. When you see a wrestler you should be thinking "That cool motherfucker would eat me alive". You don't get that aura from half as many people these days, and I'd say that it's to the detriment of the company. Really, who'd you want to see? Zack Ryder continuing to be the most massive nerd ever, or Scott Steiner killing shit?

 

Ryder's a jobber and Ryback's killing shit.

[PowerButchi]

Not underestimating the power of strong booking there at all. The strength of the booking in the case of Menry goes without saying. But he's responsible for it working. Otherwise it'd just be like Kurrgan The Interrogator or any other number of failed WWF/E monster pushes or something. He's a larger than life and believable badass, and Mark Henry's not getting the credit off you there he deserves.

 

In all fairness, he's always made it work for me in this situation. 2003, 2006, 2009, 2011, now.

 

 

Ryder's a jobber and Ryback's killing shit.

 

 

Yep, and it's a success. They tried pushing the geek 2 years ago, it flopped. Now pushing the hard and cool monster, and it's worked. Who'da thunk it.

Edited February 11, 2013 by PowerButchi

[Mr Butternut Squash]

Anyway, I doubt the likes of Cena, Swagger, Henry, Sheamus, Cesaro, Byran, Ziggler, Brodus etc. aren't handy.

Doesn't matter if they are handy. They dont give off the vibe that they are. Cena and Henry (and Sheamus to an extent) do, and they do business. There's a lad off here expecting a retweet of a picture he drew of the companies biggest heel. He ain't doing that shit, and nor should he (no offensive to the poster obviously). They should be presenting themselves as stars, not bowing down to the demands of retweets and putting belts they won on Smackdown on the wall. When I grew up I knew fuck all about the Ultimate Warrior. I used to think "Hulk Hogan wears cut off blazers when he goes to weddings". I never imagined Randy Savage walked about in real life without a weightlifting belt. Look at Brock Lesnar. When he walks out people go "fucking heel". People believe in him. If you don't build an infrastructure around you babyfaces and heels and make them look strong and if the wrestlers themselves dont present themselves in public like they are above the fans themselves. People are desperate to believe in characters. The idea that people watch wrestling and don't want to believe and invest in the storylines and characters is ridiculous. I never watch wrestling unless I believe in the guy I am watching it for. If you replaced Brock and Cena last year with Swagger and The Miz, would it be the same? Would it fuck. Because I believed in the story.

 

This is all true. It's funny to see the younger guys clumsily react to the rise of social media. Creating an 'aura' still doesn't have to be about size/creds though, it's about making people believe/live through your character, like you say. The smaller guys just have to rely a bit more on their imagination.

[UK Kat Von D]

You can't just have a roster full of big badass guys. Henry wouldn't look half as good always going agaisnt someone his size compared to people like Daniel Bryan. Just like how tubby wrestlers are great, but no one wants a roster full of them. You need the right balance of small and big guys to make things work, to emphasise people's strengths and to create fresh match ups. Admittedly WWE is lacking in in the big believable wrestler department right now, but don't under play the importance of the smaller guys ready to put on good technical matches. The key is finding the right balance

[ColinBollocks]

I was watching Smackdown at the weekend and what always sticks out with Henry is how believable he is. Even with the 'Sexual Chocolate' bollocks, you have no doubt that Henry is big, bad and can take your Dad.

 

On The Miz, Kevin Nash once said that The Miz winning the belt 'exposed the business'. What he means by that is The Miz not only looks soft but his reality show past batters the point home that he's just a bloke, rather than a wrestler. The Miz is a solid midcard heel, but it's becoming quite clear that when he's out of that comfort zone he's pretty awful. That angle with Brock Lesnar really hammered home Nash's point, IMO. Look at the way Daniel Bryan reacted to Henry returning; first he looked shocked and shitting it, then (as every babyface worth anything should do) bravely tried to fight the beast. When Lesnar came out to smack The Miz about, The Miz just decided he was Steve Austin. It made The Miz look absolutely ridiculous, as it would if Daniel Bryan decided to do that.

Edited February 11, 2013 by Blackson Jackson

[hitman89762000]

When lesnar came out the other week and pointed at heyman to get in the corner and stay there you just knew this was a guy you wouldn't want to fuck with, even heyman his best friend and manager wasn't going to argue with him. Its rare you get something like that on the shows these days having henry back gives you a dose of that as well.

[ShortOrderCook]

Interesting discussion this. Iun and Pitcos last posts paint the picture about right for me, except for Iuns points about framing the belts, pretty sure Hart, Hogan and Rock all did that too mainly because they're massive marks for themselves (Hogan and Hart at least). Certainly agree about Twitter though and how that can be detrimental to their aura and appearing larger than life. It's what I love about Brock, Taker, Triple H. They don't get involved in that shit and they remain a good few notches above everyone else. They get it, you don't for a second doubt those guys aren't just the way they're presented. Rock is all over Twitter, he obviously gets it too and uses that tool very wisely, he doesn't follow anyone and it actually only adds to his whole deal.

 

I don't necessarily agree that all the wrestlers are marks these days and they weren't in the past, Pitcos is right with his post but plenty of them were marks in the past too, especially in the 90's but they still managed to not come across that way so that it was detrimental to their presence. For the likes of your Foleys and Hardys it was actually great for them. One thing I've long thought though, is that there's not really enough cunts and disagreements with guys and genuine beefs. It's great in one sense that everyone gets on and everyone is happy to put someone else over but it's also totally shit. It's obvious why everybody is happy to put everyone else over and has no pull on those matters but sometimes I wish it wasn't like that. Imagine if Dolph Ziggler could get away with having a 90s Shawn Michaels attitude, he'd have a very different career by now if he could.

[garynysmon]

Does every discussion on here revert back to "wrestlers these days eh? What a bunch of poofs"?

 

It broke my heart when I first read that Wrestlers these days play video games instead of going out on the piss and fucking 3 rats at a time.

Edited February 11, 2013 by garynysmon