Raw Discussion 10/10/11 **Spoilers**

[King Pitcos]

Just watched an old clip of an attitude-era confrontation between Rock and Road Dogg. As much as people don't like Lawler's commentary now, it's nowhere near as bad these days as it was then. The fucking shrieks coming out of him at every Rock line. It's embarrassing.

 

Fair enough, if you think that the CM Punk story was done as well as it could have been.

What's that got to do with anything? Nobody in the world thinks the CM Punk story has gone well, but your "well they stuck with heel Triple H, that was the right kind of heat" remark was nonsense in relation to CM Punk, the hot new star babyface.

[Chris B]

Fair enough, if you think that the CM Punk story was done as well as it could have been.

What's that got to do with anything? Nobody in the world thinks the CM Punk story has gone well, but your "well they stuck with heel Triple H, that was the right kind of heat" remark was nonsense in relation to CM Punk, the hot new star babyface.

 

Ah, okay, I may not have been clear. My point wasn't anything to do with the alignment of heel/face. My point was that it was an example of something that took a little longer to work than Vince etc. would have preferred, and they had to be talked out of pulling the plug on it. Sometimes patience is actually the riskier option, but can have bigger payoffs. That was the point of the example I used.

 

There are also times when the opposite is true - I remember reading somewhere that Vince blew off pretty much all of their stories in 1997 (Rockabilly/Road Dogg etc) that were intended to be longer running, and went straight to a new set of stories, and obviously that worked well.

 

I'm not saying that both sides don't have their advantages. Just that they need to be used at the right times, and that WWE could probably afford to be more patient sometimes.

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

I agree. Does seem like a massive logical hole.

 

The guy wants to get rid of HHH as he feels that, like Vince, he is more harmful to the look term aspect of wrestling. He attempts to do it like a man, but fails in doing so.

 

Then a load of wrestlers get the job done without him and he bitches about how "they didn't do it right." Excuse me? They effectively unionized and force Triple H down, bringing big change with it.

 

To me CM Punk is sounding hypocritical. And I don't get his philosophy. Why was HIS approach better than THEIR approach? He attempted to force change through blackmail and violence, whilst all his colleagues did it through a political process.

 

Whats his current motivation? To take on the guys who succeeded where he didn't? Where is Punk's beef with now and why?

 

Did you not watch wrestling between August and now? Punk and Triple H essentially buried the hatchet the day after their match, when Punk noted there is a conspiracy against both of them and that HHH isn't the real problem.

 

 

I don't watch RAW due to not having Sky Sports, so only see whats presented to me on the catchup shows. However this seems even more muddling to me. Didn't he want HHH out originally because he represented the "old ways of doing things" before he considered him being a part of some sort of conspiracy?

[The Cum Doctor]

Didn't he want HHH out originally because he represented the "old ways of doing things" before he considered him being a part of some sort of conspiracy?

 

HHH is out. There's no problem on that count.

[1SinN6]

Fair enough, if you think that the CM Punk story was done as well as it could have been.

What's that got to do with anything? Nobody in the world thinks the CM Punk story has gone well, but your "well they stuck with heel Triple H, that was the right kind of heat" remark was nonsense in relation to CM Punk, the hot new star babyface.

 

Ah, okay, I may not have been clear. My point wasn't anything to do with the alignment of heel/face. My point was that it was an example of something that took a little longer to work than Vince etc. would have preferred, and they had to be talked out of pulling the plug on it. Sometimes patience is actually the riskier option, but can have bigger payoffs. That was the point of the example I used.

 

There are also times when the opposite is true - I remember reading somewhere that Vince blew off pretty much all of their stories in 1997 (Rockabilly/Road Dogg etc) that were intended to be longer running, and went straight to a new set of stories, and obviously that worked well.

 

I'm not saying that both sides don't have their advantages. Just that they need to be used at the right times, and that WWE could probably afford to be more patient sometimes.

 

NO SHIT!

 

This sentence in combination with the history of the last decade of WWE booking made me laugh..

 

Plus the ' HHH is out' baffels me, cause it seems he's more IN then ever. The whole WWE booking now centers around HHH. We open shows with him in videopackages and end with him in the ring in a way. Jesus Christ, this shit is going downhill fast. I now want the WWE to fail and go away, just to prove that wrestling doesnt work this way.

 

I'm fed up and now get my pleasures from watching the buys go down and ratings being all over the place.

 

People still watch darts, if you do wrestling the right way, people will watch and tune in.

[andrew "the ref" coyne]

Didn't he want HHH out originally because he represented the "old ways of doing things" before he considered him being a part of some sort of conspiracy?

 

HHH is out. There's no problem on that count.

 

No i know that, but that dosen't answer my question.

 

1) Didn't he want HHH our originally because he represented the "old ways of doing things"?

 

and

 

2) Did he start accusing him of a conspiracy after this original accusation?

 

I ask because from what I've seen the impression I got was that CM Punk wanted HHH gone originally because he wanted a change to the way business was done and NOT because he felt there was a conspiracy. And if this is a case, it just seems hypocritical for his character to suddenly be against ousting HHH through legitimate political motions.

 

Im just trying to peice this together because I don't watch Raw, I only see the recap shows and so Im missing bits of information.

[Baz Windham]

Fair enough, if you think that the CM Punk story was done as well as it could have been.

What's that got to do with anything? Nobody in the world thinks the CM Punk story has gone well, but your "well they stuck with heel Triple H, that was the right kind of heat" remark was nonsense in relation to CM Punk, the hot new star babyface.

 

Ah, okay, I may not have been clear. My point wasn't anything to do with the alignment of heel/face. My point was that it was an example of something that took a little longer to work than Vince etc. would have preferred, and they had to be talked out of pulling the plug on it. Sometimes patience is actually the riskier option, but can have bigger payoffs. That was the point of the example I used.

 

There are also times when the opposite is true - I remember reading somewhere that Vince blew off pretty much all of their stories in 1997 (Rockabilly/Road Dogg etc) that were intended to be longer running, and went straight to a new set of stories, and obviously that worked well.

 

I'm not saying that both sides don't have their advantages. Just that they need to be used at the right times, and that WWE could probably afford to be more patient sometimes.

 

 

Plus the ' HHH is out' baffels me, cause it seems he's more IN then ever. The whole WWE booking now centers around HHH. We open shows with him in videopackages and end with him in the ring in a way. Jesus Christ, this shit is going downhill fast. I now want the WWE to fail and go away, just to prove that wrestling doesnt work this way.

 

 

 

He also got cheered over the ENTIRE roster by the paying audience and is still probably the most popular, regular bloke that they have everywhere he goes. This would be case if he took a minor role on the show or the main part. Why not continue to use about the only one massively popular veteran you have left to create some interest whilst building up others around him, which they are.

[JohnnyChimpo]

All the while, others, like myself, Ian, Butch etc were all saying; "Its a good promo, but lets not get carried away here", and people were responding with; "Fuck that, its the greatest promo of all time~".

 

Its mainly those people I'm laughing at.

 

Well done! You are the man! I'd rather feel good about wrestling for that short time than be cautious about the whole thing the whole way through. Get off your pedastal you bell end.

Awww, do you feel all big now you called someone names online? Bless ya.

 

You'd rather feel good about wrestling for that short period of time? I guess that's where we differ I suppose. See, I felt good about wrestling before that angle, during that angle and still feel good about wrestling since that angle. I thought Punk's initial promo was awesome. I loved the build to MITB and the match with Cena was excellent. But, I was enjoying wrestling before that happened too, and I've been enjoying it even more since Trips came back. Its got nothing to do with being cautious through the whole thing, its to do with being realistic. I didn't buy into the hype that Punk had suddenly become the second coming of Stone Cold. If being realistic about whats happening, and where its going is being on a pedestal, then I'd much rather that than be a spacker over the situation.

[NEWM]

Loved the goodie brigade bit at the start, rest of the show was okay but would have quite liked to see that idea play out just a bit longer.

 

No other real immediate thoughts this week, but as much as I love both guys, I can't watch much more of Miz do his Eve Torres impression on that entrance. Hope they axe that sooner rather than later.

[CleetusVanDamme]

HHH was fantastic as usual this week. He had the crowd completely eating out the palm of his hand during the opening segment, specifically when he asked if he should quit, and the entire arena screamed back "NOOOOOO!". Textbook.

 

 

 

He'll be gracing us with his second match in as many months as well. I could get used to this..

[AndyUK]

I don't know if I'm in the minority or not but I love HHH being a big part of the show again. It makes it even more hillarious when you've got so many fans on the internet tearing their hair out over each and every thing he says or does too. The majority of fans that go to shows absolutely love the guy. Alright, I know that we're talking about different times but there aren't many wrestlers that have been able to get people to love them so much when they're face and hate them so much when they're heel.

 

RAW was infinitely more entertaining with just him, Cena, Punk and Sheamus there. I could easily have watched those four talk and wrestle for two hours. After the first half an hour, the show just wasn't very good. There was barely any wrestling of note and everything was just a bit bland.

[King Pitcos]

Loved the goodie brigade bit at the start, rest of the show was okay but would have quite liked to see that idea play out just a bit longer.

Samesies. Four of my favourites of the moment, and it just made the whole show seem different.

 

I don't watch RAW due to not having Sky Sports, so only see whats presented to me on the catchup shows. However this seems even more muddling to me. Didn't he want HHH out originally because he represented the "old ways of doing things" before he considered him being a part of some sort of conspiracy?

Yeah, but the writing is inconsistent as fuck. And the numbers evidently showed that having your joint top babyface always moaning that wrestling is shit wasn't bringing many viewers back, so they had to tweak Punk's story a bit.

[Ok tne. Gaping_Gash_of_Joy]

Just had to have my say on the whole CM Punk thing as I've been disappointed at watching it fall apart in front of my very eyes.

 

I don't really think Punk drop the ball, I just think the situations that he was put in sabotaged him. I remember that random music hitting two weeks after he left WWE and praying it wasn't him returning. Sadly it was. I understand people saying he had to be back on TV to cash in on his popularity but in all honesty, the moment he was back that early it killed him. Remember a lot of the reason the NWO got so over is they were doing stuff people hadn't seen before. The Comic Con thing really peaked my attention. I didn't see any problem with the WWE playing that on TV like they did R-Truth and Miz's videos or having him defend it in ROH and show the footage on RAW. Hell, have ADR invade trying to Cash in Money in the Bank. Maybe it wouldn't make legal sense but people would have bought it. Then force him back to RAW with an offer he couldn't refuse. Making Vince quit the WWE maybe? Two weeks? I didn't get a chance to miss him.

 

Once back on RAW, and I'm not going to make this a "Triple H buried Punk" thing because I just thought it was poor planning but when Punk made one of his anti-establishment rants, Cena or Triple H would come back with arguments that made sense. That massively diluted Punks argument. The whole point of these segments should be to get Punk over, not to point out the weaknesses in the stuff he says.

 

As time progressed rather then putting him into feuds with heels, they have him feud with the massively face Triple H and to make matter worse, they revert from him sticking up for the people on the roster without a voice to a guy who takes the piss out of Triple H's wife to his face in the most childish way possible. That bit where he said, "pipe bomb" and dropped the mic was one of the most cringing things I've seen. But even then it was buried by Triple H saying "insulting my wife was so 10 years ago."

 

So then we're left with the gallant vs the guy who runs down a guy's wife.

 

How the hell does any of that build a top babyface?

 

Even if they'd had Triple H turn in his match with Punk and form a stable with Nash, Steph, Truth and Miz then Punk may have got some momentum back but he got nothing. People can say what they want, but name me any wrestler who's become a mega star babyface after feuding directly with the top two babyfaces in the company.

[Ok tne. Gaping_Gash_of_Joy]

And another thing, do people expect casual fans to return quickly? Cos last time I checked, casual fans have to accidentally stumble across the product or get told by someone to tune in. How was Punk suppose to influence anything in what was, realistically, a six week period? What I will say is, my house mates who had shown little interest in WWE before got drawn in by the initial Punk storyline. Take that for what it's worth.

[King Pitcos]

I don't really think Punk drop the ball, I just think the situations that he was put in sabotaged him. I remember that random music hitting two weeks after he left WWE and praying it wasn't him returning. Sadly it was. I understand people saying he had to be back on TV to cash in on his popularity but in all honesty, the moment he was back that early it killed him. Remember a lot of the reason the NWO got so over is they were doing stuff people hadn't seen before. The Comic Con thing really peaked my attention. I didn't see any problem with the WWE playing that on TV like they did R-Truth and Miz's videos or having him defend it in ROH and show the footage on RAW. Hell, have ADR invade trying to Cash in Money in the Bank. Maybe it wouldn't make legal sense but people would have bought it. Then force him back to RAW with an offer he couldn't refuse. Making Vince quit the WWE maybe? Two weeks? I didn't get a chance to miss him.

All well and good if it was Saturday Morning Superstars and the next pay-per-view was five months away. But it's 2011. They've got a prime time show every Monday and a pay-per-view every three or four weeks, and those need main events.

 

And another thing, do people expect casual fans to return quickly? Cos last time I checked, casual fans have to accidentally stumble across the product or get told by someone to tune in. How was Punk suppose to influence anything in what was, realistically, a six week period? What I will say is, my house mates who had shown little interest in WWE before got drawn in by the initial Punk storyline. Take that for what it's worth.

What was it they liked? The Jack Tunney references? The entire point of the CM Punk promo and all his mainstream appearances and interviews was to bring back the former fans who now no longer watch but bitch about it on messageboards. Nothing in Punk's repertoire in the summer was designed to draw in new fans, it was all about making it fun again for lapsed longterm fans. And that shit was instantaneous. Anyone who keeps tabs on wrestling was aware of it within twelve hours of the initial speech.