Raw Discussion 10/10/11 **Spoilers**

[Dirty Eddie]

They went up due to the build and hit yearly lows almost as soon as he returned. Since when did an interest spike translate into big business? Kane drew money promising to set himself on fire on a PPV. If you fail to deliver, you can only do that once.

So during the build he was over like fuck, and when they rushed him back, had him 're-sign with the company' and moved him into a feud with the popular Triple H, his popularity dwindled a bit. Hardly surprising. An interest spike rarely translates straight into big business, that's why you push someone for months, not expect a payoff after one month.

 

 

Did R-Truth go on Jimmy Kimmel? Was R-Truth the centre piece of the debut at the heavily hyped Comic Con? Did R-Truth go to Baseball games and get show on TV with an onscreen graphic as the champion? Or paid money for real music (which they will continue to pay royalties for each time it appears on DVDs). They put the rocket up his arse as far as promotion of him went.

 

Miz was all over everything leading into Mania, he was also therefore a huge flop as champ and should be mocked til the end of time. Or maybe they just didn't push him very well?

 

 

Surely you can see how thick that sentence is. They spent money on promoting him in the media and spent so much television time giving him freedom on the microphone. When they ask "why did the recent run of pay-per-views perform so poorly?" What excuse should they use?

Perhaps they should explain how they botched his early-return and tried feuding him with Nash, whom nobody responded too. Or maybe how they took the belt from him while he was hot to put it on the luke-warm Del Rio and put him and Cena into the main events.

 

 

But ... SummerSlam did drop! And so will Night of Champions and Hell in the Cell? And so have television ratings? If you are judging him on one buyrate than fell below expectations, thats a up hill struggle to argue with.

Punk is no longer the centrepiece of WWE TV though. That lasted about 3 weeks. It's everyone involved again now, Cena, Del Rio, Orton, Menry, Vince, Triple H... and Punk. How has his one push fucked up the whole thing? It clearly hasn't.

 

 

Triple H and Cena have been regular characters for years. And have a track record with the audience. Cena vs Triple H drew money on PPV. Their segments usually draw high ratings. CM Punk vs. Triple H and CM Punk vs Cena didn't draw. Who's the problem? Who out of those three has zero track record of drawing money and television ratings?

 

The guy who wasn't presented as being on their level for the last 5 years in the company, who has had a one month push in to the main event scene.

[air_raid]

Did he really become a Star almost instantly though? I remember the general feeling being "what the fuck is Bradshaw doing in the main events?" at first.

 

That was the reaction at the time of smarky nerd types. I know, I AM one of those types, and looking back even now you can say at the time it wasn't "deserved" due to his lack of track record and being an "overpushed tag team wrestler." But the heat he generated almost from the off, and especially in the build-up to his title-winning crack at Guerrero at the Bash was nothing short of nuclear. I'd call that particular two months almost instant, and roughly the same amount of time that Punk's sympathizers claim they "gave up" on him/aborted his push - which as Pity has rightly pointed out, isn't exactly true.

[Dirty Eddie]

Did he really become a Star almost instantly though? I remember the general feeling being "what the fuck is Bradshaw doing in the main events?" at first.

 

That was the reaction at the time of smarky nerd types. I know, I AM one of those types, and looking back even now you can say at the time it wasn't "deserved" due to his lack of track record and being an "overpushed tag team wrestler." But the heat he generated almost from the off, and especially in the build-up to his title-winning crack at Guerrero at the Bash was nothing short of nuclear. I'd call that particular two months almost instant, and roughly the same amount of time that Punk's sympathizers claim they "gave up" on him/aborted his push - which as Pity has rightly pointed out, isn't exactly true.

 

The key difference is, they didn't give up on Bradshaw, he got pushed, and pushed. That's the way it needs to be, whether the talent is amazing or average. WWE half-arse virtually everyone, that's their main problem.

 

I've not claimed WWE has "given up" on Punk, but he's clearly not the featured attraction that he was pushed as for those three weeks when he announced his contract was up. He's in a tasty position at the moment.

[JohnnyChimpo]

Outselling Capital Punishment and Over the Limit is bombing? Then what would you call those PPVs?

 

Not to mention Summerslam (one of the WWE's "Big 4") only drawing 301k that's bombing.

I would call both of them bombs too. Did I ever say they weren't? As Butch as said though, MITB was a bigger bomb, given the hype and the build up going into it. Truth was a stop gap opponent for Cena. Thats it. He was an opening card wrestler, live audience popper, light hearted entertainment type wrestler up until that point. When he was added to the Elimination Chamber a few months previous, he was viewed as a joke entrant by most, who never stood a chance of winning. Complete opposite of Punk. Punk (while he may have been eventually losing the feuds) had at least been in high profile feuds with the likes of Orton, Undertaker, Hardy, Mysterio and several bouts with Cena for several years before MITB. He had lead two stables on either brand, he was a multiple time World Champion. He was then given the absolute freedom to do whatever he wanted, and say whatever he wanted. He was given complete freedom over the storyline, he was allowed to drop all of the insider references he wanted, he had Vince McMahon on his knees begging, he was running down everyone, while wearing Stone Cold Steve Austin t-shirts. He had the intrigue of "what will happen to the WWE title if he wins it and leaves the company" going for him. He had a killer hook, a killer angle, a killer promo, loads of media appearances, and Vince McMahon and John Cena to work against. It doesn't come close to the build for the other PPV's. Especially R-fucking-Truth.

 

It's just people who (for seemingly no good reason) are taking pleasure in mocking Punk because he's an "internet guy" and those stupid "internet fans" fap all over him.

Its people mocking and laughing at how all the fappers where acting at the time like Punk had become the next global superstar over night. And now those people are saying "You can never turn someone into a global superstar over night'. We laughed then, and we're laughing harder now.

 

It's double standards.

Its not. Because the two situations simply don't compare. People, like guts316 for example, are saying MITB was one of the most eagerly anticipated match in the history of the WWE. So, is it fair to compare it to a main event of Cena v R-Truth? Cause if R-Truth v Cena was also one of the most eagerly anticipated matches in the history of the WWE, then its a fair comparison. If it wasn't, then you can't really use that to compare.

 

I remember everyone on here going on about how Punk had re-ignited interest in the casual and lapsed fans. Apparently Facebook exploded with interested in Punk. He had pretty much ushered in a new boom era according to many on here. The thing is, if all these lapsed fans and casuals had their interest re-ignited, why didn't the bother to tune into Raw or watch the PPV?

 

Make your minds up; did he get a great push and fail, or did he get a push that was never going to work because it only resonated with a small part of the audience. It can't be both.

Again, as Butch points out, it was option 3. He got a great push. He got complete freedom and control. He just used it poorly. Like your saying, it can't be both. So he was either responsible for that awesome promo at the start, and also responsible for all the shit ones that followed, or he was responsible for none of it. It can't be both.

 

How long did it take Triple H to go from being that guy who stuck out in main events when they starting forcing him down everyone's throats, to the point where he was a genuine full-time top star? A year or more? The first Heel to retain at Wrestlemania and retiring the legendary Mick Foley? And all that was after he turned at the height of his popularity as DX leader. It still didn't make him an instant top-star, never mind a money-draw. I'm quite glad they persevered with that bloke.

Thats another myth. Triple H was well over. Go back on watch some of those old Raws and PPV's from the time and tell me he wasn't over. He was over way before Mick Foley "made him". Re-watch Fully Loaded from July 99 when he fought a number one contenders match with The Rock. Or Unforgiven in the 6-Pack Challenge. Or No Mercy v Austin. Or the pop when he drops the title to Big Show at Survivor Series. Or the wedding angle with Steph. If that is considered to be floundering or not over, then Punk, by comparison, might as well hang up his boots, cause Trips on his worst day back then, was more over than Punk has ever been (when he is anywhere outside of his hometown).

 

JBL was given a 9 month, unbroken World Title Reign, while pushed as the clear top heel on the brand.

The reason why JBL got that 9 month, unbroken title push, was because he was mega over. From pretty much the very start. First few weeks the crowd were indifferent, but after that first PPV, he was mega over. And he never dropped that ball. Bar the crowd reaction at MITB (his hometown) Punk has been pretty indifferent to how over he is. A few cheers here and there, a pop here and there, worst rated segment of the night here and there. He has been lukewarm at best.

[air_raid]

The key difference is, they didn't give up on Bradshaw, he got pushed, and pushed. That's the way it needs to be, whether the talent is amazing or average. WWE half-arse virtually everyone, that's their main problem.

 

I won't argue with that at all. The stop-star booking is fucking outrageous. McIntyre should be on tv every week, and I bet 80% of the non-IRC viewership don't even remember that Dolph Ziggler has held the World title this year, albeit briefly.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

So during the build he was over like fuck, and when they rushed him back, had him 're-sign with the company' and moved him into a feud with the popular Triple H, his popularity dwindled a bit. Hardly surprising. An interest spike rarely translates straight into big business, that's why you push someone for months, not expect a payoff after one month.

He is still over. Put pops dont equal heat, and pops definitely dont equal business. And business when he was supposedly at his most over wasn't very good. Legend Killer said it earlier better than me. The hype was centered around internet hype. The core audience didn't seem to care.

 

Miz was all over everything leading into Mania, he was also therefore a huge flop as champ and should be mocked til the end of time. Or maybe they just didn't push him very well?

They didn't push him well. The build up was 90% Rock vs Cena. Punk got Triple H, Vince McMahon and John Cena. Who did Miz get? Jerry Lawler, Randy Orton (who was booked super strong against him) and Michael Cole as a cheerleader. I know which build I'd rather have.

 

Perhaps they should explain how they botched his early-return and tried feuding him with Nash, whom nobody responded too. Or maybe how they took the belt from him while he was hot to put it on the luke-warm Del Rio and put him and Cena into the main events.

People responded to Nash. Especially at SummerSlam and the Night of Champions. But again, pops don't generate money. So reactions matter very little. If you are over, you dont keep your talent off TV. If you have someone on Kimmel, at Baseball games and on radio shows promoting himself as this game changer, you dont keep him off TV. Why would they send him out to do promotion and not put him on TV? Here's the thing, if they take him off TV to promote his return, if anyone is interested he needs to be on TV. If he is over, you cant not have him on TV. If he is drawing, you again cant not have him on TV.

 

Punk is no longer the centrepiece of WWE TV though. That lasted about 3 weeks. It's everyone involved again now, Cena, Del Rio, Orton, Menry, Vince, Triple H... and Punk. How has his one push fucked up the whole thing? It clearly hasn't.

There's probably an obvious reason he's not the centrepiece of WWE.

 

The guy who wasn't presented as being on their level for the last 5 years in the company, who has had a one month push in to the main event scene.

He's main evented the last 4 PPV's and is now Triple H's Zodiac. He is in the main event scene. He's 50 times better off than he was in March.

[King Pitcos]

Perhaps they should explain how they botched his early-return and tried feuding him with Nash, whom nobody responded too. Or maybe how they took the belt from him while he was hot to put it on the luke-warm Del Rio and put him and Cena into the main events.

As you've been told plenty of times and ignore because it doesn't fit your "it's everyone else's fault" nonsense, Punk main-evented the next pay-per-view and Cena and Del Rio didn't.

[King Pitcos]

Thats another myth. Triple H was well over. Go back on watch some of those old Raws and PPV's from the time and tell me he wasn't over. He was over way before Mick Foley "made him". Re-watch Fully Loaded from July 99 when he fought a number one contenders match with The Rock. Or Unforgiven in the 6-Pack Challenge. Or No Mercy v Austin. Or the pop when he drops the title to Big Show at Survivor Series. Or the wedding angle with Steph. If that is considered to be floundering or not over, then Punk, by comparison, might as well hang up his boots, cause Trips on his worst day back then, was more over than Punk has ever been (when he is anywhere outside of his hometown).

See, I asked this the other week and I don't recall seeing an answer from anyone. The fapmongs have been very keen to throw out the "well look at Triple H in 99/2000, that took ages for him to get over" excuse lately as they cling for reasons Punk has been perfect, but I don't know what they mean by it. Were ratings, buyrates and attendance shite for the first six months of Triple H's run on top? How exactly was he meant to be floundering?

 

I remember everyone on here going on about how Punk had re-ignited interest in the casual and lapsed fans. Apparently Facebook exploded with interested in Punk. He had pretty much ushered in a new boom era according to many on here. The thing is, if all these lapsed fans and casuals had their interest re-ignited, why didn't the bother to tune into Raw or watch the PPV?

I think the people who were doing that at the time have convinced themselves now that they never did it.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Triple H was over. Triple H is an example to the contrary. He was penned in to win the title infront of a giant audience against Austin at SummerSlam with Ventura as the ref and ... he got told where to go. He did win it, but the moment was gone. Then Vince beat him for it. Austin kept outsmarting him. Austin went down with a neck injury and Big Show beat him. They threw him around left and right. They even got fucking DX back together. Triple H was getting derailed at every turn up until that Foley feud. Triple H was dynamite on the mic and looked the business though. Thats the difference. If you let it wash off your back and continue to carry yourself like a star, they cant bury you.

[Slapnut]

Fuck the fappers, CM Punk is awesome. Just a good fun wrestler if you're not spending too much time concentrating on DA BUYRATEZ~!

 

I thought it was a perfectly fine show. As somebody has already said, I'd much prefer a show with a few plotholes and inconsistencies than a dull-as-dishwater show where nothing remotely interesting happens.

 

My main problem, however, is that I just can't take Miz & Truth seriously as a threat, especially when they're coming down to R-Truth's new music which, as funny as it is, just doesn't suit any "outsider" character.

 

I mark for face wrestlers buddying up, so I'm looking forward to Punk & Triple H teaming up. That last segment was quality, and you won't find much better in wrestling than arse-kicking Triple H.

 

Sheamus is the next big thing. Hopefully.

[King Pitcos]

Triple H was over. Triple H is an example to the contrary. He was penned in to win the title infront of a giant audience against Austin at SummerSlam with Ventura as the ref and ... he got told where to go. He did win it, but the moment was gone. Then Vince beat him for it. Austin kept outsmarting him. Austin went down with a neck injury and Big Show beat him. They threw him around left and right. They even got fucking DX back together. Triple H was getting derailed at every turn up until that Foley feud. Triple H was dynamite on the mic and looked the business though. Thats the difference. If you let it wash off your back and continue to carry yourself like a star, they cant bury you.

Yeah they can. Punk carries himself as strongly as anyone, he connects with both the audience WWE has and the audience they want, and the bastards still manage to bury him through no fault of his own. He main-events every pay-per-view, he's always in the prime segments on TV, he beat John Cena twice on the trot, how can any wrestler endure that kind of booking and look like a star... That bastard Evil Vince won't even give him a chance!

[Dirty Eddie]

He is still over. Put pops dont equal heat, and pops definitely dont equal business. And business when he was supposedly at his most over wasn't very good. Legend Killer said it earlier better than me. The hype was centered around internet hype. The core audience didn't seem to care.

Right, so if the hype was built around internet hype, why did WWE think it would translate to a huge PPV number? That's their expectations being out of whack. It did better than the last 2 B PPVs,again, hardly a total failure.

 

 

They didn't push him well. The build up was 90% Rock vs Cena. Punk got Triple H, Vince McMahon and John Cena. Who did Miz get? Jerry Lawler, Randy Orton (who was booked super strong against him) and Michael Cole as a cheerleader. I know which build I'd rather have.

 

Punk was getting better reactions than Cena for a few weeks, then they had him turn his anger towards Triple H, who is universally popular. Is it really surprising his popularity dropped?

 

 

People responded to Nash. Especially at SummerSlam and the Night of Champions. But again, pops don't generate money. So reactions matter very little. If you are over, you dont keep your talent off TV. If you have someone on Kimmel, at Baseball games and on radio shows promoting himself as this game changer, you dont keep him off TV. Why would they send him out to do promotion and not put him on TV? Here's the thing, if they take him off TV to promote his return, if anyone is interested he needs to be on TV. If he is over, you cant not have him on TV. If he is drawing, you again cant not have him on TV.

 

People popped for Nash when he appeared (which doesn't matter, right) but were "what"ing or silent on RAW every time. I fucking love Nash, but being in the middle of a clique love-tiff did Punk no favours.

 

 

He's main evented the last 4 PPV's and is now Triple H's Zodiac. He is in the main event scene. He's 50 times better off than he was in March.

 

Yeah I know. I've said a few times he's in a better position than before his push started and is in a very tasty spot. No-one is claiming he's being jobbed to hell. That's not been a part of my argument at all, so i don't know why it's being brought up.

[King Pitcos]

Right, so if the hype was built around internet hype, why did WWE think it would translate to a huge PPV number? That's their expectations being out of whack.

Correct. And not just theirs.

 

Yeah I know. I've said a few times he's in a better position than before his push started and is in a very tasty spot. No-one is claiming he's being jobbed to hell. That's not been a part of my argument at all, so i don't know why it's being brought up.

Because (and I can link you to the post if you want) you cried about how he got pushed out of main events in favour of Cena and Del Rio, which only happened if you watched the Night of Champions matches on Youtube in the wrong order.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Right, so if the hype was built around internet hype, why did WWE think it would translate to a huge PPV number? That's their expectations being out of whack. It did better than the last 2 B PPVs,again, hardly a total failure.

Because they were desperate for a significant buyrate and it failed. They experimented with insider bullshit and went back on it. The reason CM Punk is still in the main event is because they've changed his character and added real stars to the mix because the initial version of his character was fun for the UKFF and TheBOARD~, but not for anyone else. And all this "did better than the last 2 PPV's" is again laughable.

 

Punk was getting better reactions than Cena for a few weeks, then they had him turn his anger towards Triple H, who is universally popular. Is it really surprising his popularity dropped?

Reactions?!!! Kelly Kelly gets better reactions than Cena. Ice Train was getting better babyface reactions than Hulk Hogan was in 1996, but nobody was thinking of putting him in a main event slot full time. Reactions mean nothing. Hall vs Zbysko was getting better reactions than the USA vs Canada feud in the WWF.

 

People popped for Nash when he appeared (which doesn't matter, right) but were "what"ing or silent on RAW every time. I fucking love Nash, but being in the middle of a clique love-tiff did Punk no favours.

Mark Henry gets "What's?" and he's their biggest draw outside Cena and Orton at the minute. I don't know what Nash was brought up for. Hes far better than working with Luke Gallows. They never played to Nash's strengths at all. Nobody mentions that though. They never mentioned that Nash hasn't cut a live promo in years and hates cutting scripted promos.

[Dirty Eddie]

Right, so if the hype was built around internet hype, why did WWE think it would translate to a huge PPV number? That's their expectations being out of whack.

Correct. And not just theirs.

 

Yeah, some fans went overboard when their favourite did well. That never happens in wrestling does it! I can't imagine anyone raving about their favourite wrestler doing well. I don't know? Mark Henry fans or something!? Na, would never happen.

 

At least you agree that WWE were mad to think a month of pushing smart-fans buttons was going to result in a monster-level buyrate for a B PPV.

 

Yeah I know. I've said a few times he's in a better position than before his push started and is in a very tasty spot. No-one is claiming he's being jobbed to hell. That's not been a part of my argument at all, so i don't know why it's being brought up.

Because (and I can link you to the post if you want) you cried about how he got pushed out of main events in favour of Cena and Del Rio, which only happened if you watched the Night of Champions matches on Youtube in the wrong order.

 

I watched the full event, live I think. Punk was indeed the main event, probably because he was fighting the returning Legend, Triple H. Cena still ended up Champion again at the end of the night. Exactly the notion that Punk's initial rants were about. Keep on pushing the same old same old.