Raw Discussion 10/10/11 **Spoilers**

[Dirty Eddie]

People popped for Nash when he appeared (which doesn't matter, right) but were "what"ing or silent on RAW every time. I fucking love Nash, but being in the middle of a clique love-tiff did Punk no favours.

Mark Henry gets "What's?" and he's their biggest draw outside Cena and Orton at the minute. I don't know what Nash was brought up for. Hes far better than working with Luke Gallows. They never played to Nash's strengths at all. Nobody mentions that though. They never mentioned that Nash hasn't cut a live promo in years and hates cutting scripted promos.

 

Wasn't Mark Henry also in featured matches on these bombing PPVs? He's a massive draw now is he?

 

Of course they didn't play to Nash's strengths. That's why those segments were pretty shit and did nothing but stall the momentum Punk had. Even Triple H looked awkward in his exchanges with Nash. Again, i love Nash, but the whole feud with Punk was a setback.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Wasn't Mark Henry also in featured matches on these bombing PPVs? He's a massive draw now is he?

This is the only time they've put the rocket on Henry's back though. Nobody is taking about Punk not drawing in one off situations. There's a difference between being the arse end of someone elses program (for example nobody was putting anything on Benoit's head if WrestleMania XX bombed because they surrounded him with Michaels and Triple H). But Punk was put into a position to draw at MITB due to the amount of TV time invested in him. Like Henry is now. Henry is getting the push of his life and he's done great with it. But like you said earlier its double standards. People are DESPERATE for Mizark to fail. But it hasnt happened yet. And when/if he does run out of steam, he'll be credited for doing so well during such an awful period of business. And he's done it without the Undertaker feud which is next for him.

[Dirty Eddie]

Wasn't Mark Henry also in featured matches on these bombing PPVs? He's a massive draw now is he?

This is the only time they've put the rocket on Henry's back though. Nobody is taking about Punk not drawing in one off situations. There's a difference between being the arse end of someone elses program (for example nobody was putting anything on Benoit's head if WrestleMania XX bombed because they surrounded him with Michaels and Triple H). But Punk was put into a position to draw at MITB due to the amount of TV time invested in him. Like Henry is now. Henry is getting the push of his life and he's done great with it. But like you said earlier its double standards. People are DESPERATE for Mizark to fail. But it hasnt happened yet. And when/if he does run out of steam, he'll be credited for doing so well during such an awful period of business. And he's done it without the Undertaker feud which is next for him.

But what you are saying comes down to both execution on WWE's part and your personal level of enjoyment.

 

You are enjoying Henry at the moment (as am I) because they've strapped the rocket too him and actually followed through (so far) with a consistent push.

 

Punk's direction has been all over the place. He was an uppercard heel who sort of turned face when bashing Cena and Vince (to a portion of the crowd anyway) then he was feuding with both Nash (who was heel) and trips (who was face). Not to mention the fact that he got laid out a bunch of times by Nash without getting any real comeback.

 

Henry's push has been clear, focused and unstopping.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Punk's direction has been all over the place. He was an uppercard heel who sort of turned face when bashing Cena and Vince (to a portion of the crowd anyway) then he was feuding with both Nash (who was heel) and trips (who was face). Not to mention the fact that he got laid out a bunch of times by Nash without getting any real comeback.

All this happened after they found out about the MITB buyrate and the television ratings going further down though (even though he was all over media outlets leading up to SummerSlam). They've had to make adjustments to Punk's character post SummerSlam. Henry is a different kettle of fish anyway. He is pretty much a one-dimensional character. He beats people up and tells you about it. His push lives or dies by how he performs in the situations he's put in. Punk was given unprecedented freedom on the microphone and a good 30 minutes throughout the show.

 

And like I said earlier, who is to say this isn't Punk's vision of how his character should go? He he really disliked it, why does he keep saying that terrible insider references? Or the no selling of anything of impact, like the time he was pretending to be sick a foot away from two people who could have just booted him in the face. He performances seem to suggest he encourages this awful character of his.

[IANdrewDiceClay]

If anyones interested, Raw did a 3.25 rating. Best in a while. But

 

1H - 5.4 million viewers.

2H - 4.6 million viewers.

 

800,000 viewers fucked off halfway through. Ouch.

[Dirty Eddie]

Punk's direction has been all over the place. He was an uppercard heel who sort of turned face when bashing Cena and Vince (to a portion of the crowd anyway) then he was feuding with both Nash (who was heel) and trips (who was face). Not to mention the fact that he got laid out a bunch of times by Nash without getting any real comeback.

All this happened after they found out about the MITB buyrate and the television ratings going further down though (even though he was all over media outlets leading up to SummerSlam). They've had to make adjustments to Punk's character post SummerSlam. Henry is a different kettle of fish anyway. He is pretty much a one-dimensional character. He beats people up and tells you about it. His push lives or dies by how he performs in the situations he's put in. Punk was given unprecedented freedom on the microphone and a good 30 minutes throughout the show.

 

And like I said earlier, who is to say this isn't Punk's vision of how his character should go? He he really disliked it, why does he keep saying that terrible insider references? Or the no selling of anything of impact, like the time he was pretending to be sick a foot away from two people who could have just booted him in the face. He performances seem to suggest he encourages this awful character of his.

 

I agree that Punk's performances have been hit and miss at times, but then he's been in a weird tweener role fora lot of that time. I've enjoyed some of his recent mic work but not all of it. The vomit-gag was awful, no questions.

 

I'm really not some blind Punk fan, who idolized him in RoH. I like him because he had cracking feuds with Rey Misterio and Jeff Hardy where he did all the mic work and totally made the feuds. That's two guys who (while they wrestle fine) are rarely up to much in the promo stakes, and against Punk it didn't matter as he got all the angles over perfectly. Two of my favourite feuds of the last few years. Add in the fact that I enjoy his matches more than most, and i think he deserves the chance he is getting.

 

Now that it seems he's a proper face character, they might be able to get back on track a bit.

 

--edit--

 

If anyones interested, Raw did a 3.25 rating. Best in a while. But

 

1H - 5.4 million viewers.

2H - 4.6 million viewers.

 

800,000 viewers fucked off halfway through. Ouch.

 

So the CM Punk Show (featuring Triple H and Cena) was doing great, then Menry turned up and 800 000 people turned over. Damn!

[Van Dammer]

Late to the party but that was a massive bag of shit, RAW is beyond awful at the moment and really cant see myself bothering to watch it again in a long time, theres just nothing there at the moment. Its a massive mess and nobody knows what to do with it now, theyre coming up with decent stuff and for whatever reason are rushing the actual inception (as with the strike angle that lasted two to three segments and not even the SmackDown! in between) or rushing the pay off (as wit Punks MITB win and run). WWE seem so concerned with the short term that theyve completely forgotten how to make things run in the long term. Id love to work in their office and see them shit themselves when a new low buyrate comes in or when a new low rating comes in and see their reactions, they are trying to think up quick fixes all the time but thats impossible when angles arent allowed to run because the next shitty names PPV is in just two weeks and needs build up. Its just crap now, really fucking crap.

[Pyrotechnik]

Either way, it bombed from WWE's point of view.

 

Outselling Capital Punishment and Over the Limit is bombing? Then what would you call those PPVs?

 

Bombs as well, but did they have the force put into promotion that was put into MITB? Did those PPV's have a main eventer who was pretty much given laissez faire on the mic in order to get the angle over? Were those PPV's expected to do well even by WWE? MITB was expected to do well internally by all accounts. It didn't. MITB was a bomb. It is what it is, and that's what people need to start accepting.

 

Up 20,000 buys from the year before, outsold the two previous PPVs (one of which was Truth vs Cena that was up 30,000 from the year before, and you call that a bomb?)

 

Just realise that the market of "Shit let's rush a PPV out every few weeks and only give a crap about 1-2 matches on the card" is the reason for low buyrates. It's like the whole crap you give Punk for the 2.9, but 2 weeks ago the go home for Hell in a Cell was 2.92 was Punk largely touted and pushed on the show? Nope. The week Raw did a 2.9 in July the first half drew low, second half drew high, where was Punk? Right at the end for the contract signing where people switched on. Trying to blame one person for a show rating is pointless, it's not like there wasn't a Cena there. Hell the week before was a 2.4 where was Punk? Not on the show at all!

 

Also you take the theme tune comment out of context, and you'll probably take this out of context too, but I digress. Play Punk's theme at the same time as Cena's, same volume settings on both. You tell me you can hear shit of Cena's theme in the first 15 seconds over Punk's and I'll call you for bullshitting. It's not them turning the volume up, the song is just crap for a good opening crowd pop.

 

Now contrary to what you think I'm not one of those people who thinks that Punk is the best thing since sliced bread. Personally if I could have the WWE the way I'd love it to be he'd be a high midcarder the way Jericho was in 2000, holding the IC title with prestige and pissing off the world contenders and getting some good matches out of it.

 

Anyway, I'm sure you'll twist facts to suit your own argument but personally, Punk's been rushed with this build up for me. You could say he's been in the top light since 2008 but look at the sidelined crap he had in between, the SES angle that went nowhere fast and got ended with the Big Show, he had the whole Nexus bollocks dropped on him. Both Punk and Truth were rushed into a Main Event program, Truth does one of the best heel turns in recent memory and Punk goes to top the merchandise, and both of them are up 30k and 20k on their previous year's buyrates respectively.

 

 

 

Edit: People want Mizark to fail? That's just stupid if it's true, because tbh the one thing the E needs is more credible top line performers, they can't keep building a company around Cena and Orton. Cena might be a great top draw but Orton is not the Stone Cold to Cena's Rock.

[METAL ON METAL]

Either way, it bombed from WWE's point of view.

 

Outselling Capital Punishment and Over the Limit is bombing? Then what would you call those PPVs?

 

Bombs as well, but did they have the force put into promotion that was put into MITB? Did those PPV's have a main eventer who was pretty much given laissez faire on the mic in order to get the angle over? Were those PPV's expected to do well even by WWE? MITB was expected to do well internally by all accounts. It didn't. MITB was a bomb. It is what it is, and that's what people need to start accepting.

 

Up 20,000 buys from the year before, outsold the two previous PPVs (one of which was Truth vs Cena that was up 30,000 from the year before, and you call that a bomb?)

 

Just realise that the market of "Shit let's rush a PPV out every few weeks and only give a crap about 1-2 matches on the card" is the reason for low buyrates. It's like the whole crap you give Punk for the 2.9, but 2 weeks ago the go home for Hell in a Cell was 2.92 was Punk largely touted and pushed on the show? Nope. The week Raw did a 2.9 in July the first half drew low, second half drew high, where was Punk? Right at the end for the contract signing where people switched on. Trying to blame one person for a show rating is pointless, it's not like there wasn't a Cena there. Hell the week before was a 2.4 where was Punk? Not on the show at all!

 

Also you take the theme tune comment out of context, and you'll probably take this out of context too, but I digress. Play Punk's theme at the same time as Cena's, same volume settings on both. You tell me you can hear shit of Cena's theme in the first 15 seconds over Punk's and I'll call you for bullshitting. It's not them turning the volume up, the song is just crap for a good opening crowd pop.

 

Now contrary to what you think I'm not one of those people who thinks that Punk is the best thing since sliced bread. Personally if I could have the WWE the way I'd love it to be he'd be a high midcarder the way Jericho was in 2000, holding the IC title with prestige and pissing off the world contenders and getting some good matches out of it.

 

Anyway, I'm sure you'll twist facts to suit your own argument but personally, Punk's been rushed with this build up for me. You could say he's been in the top light since 2008 but look at the sidelined crap he had in between, the SES angle that went nowhere fast and got ended with the Big Show, he had the whole Nexus bollocks dropped on him. Both Punk and Truth were rushed into a Main Event program, Truth does one of the best heel turns in recent memory and Punk goes to top the merchandise, and both of them are up 30k and 20k on their previous year's buyrates respectively.

 

Agree with pretty much all of that.

 

As you say, people who don't like a certain individual will just twist any facts to suit their needs and ignore the arguments given against it - usual stuff from the same old people on here really.

[JohnnyChimpo]

I'm sure you'll twist facts to suit your own argument but personally,

I know Butch is big enough (and ugly enough har har) to speak for himself, but he hasn't been twisting any facts. The PPV bombed. WWE feel the PPV bombed. All reports coming from within WWE say of how disappointed they are with the buy rate, and that there is a huge contingent of Vinces trusted personnel who are doing the whole "I told you so" routine. Its almost universally accepted by everyone, including WWE, that the angle was a commercial bomb. Thats not me, Butch, Ian or anyone else twisted facts, thats us saying it like it is.

 

Up 20,000 buys from the year before, outsold the two previous PPVs (one of which was Truth vs Cena that was up 30,000 from the year before, and you call that a bomb?)

Yes, because as I said in response to you the first time you made this point, but seem to have ignored, those other shows you are comparing it to, didnt have a fraction of the build up and expectation going into it. Its funny how you claim other people are twisting the facts to suit their argument, and here you are persisting with this "it drew better than Capitol Punishment" lark. It's all about context. At the time, during the build up and after the event itself - you know, when people were talking about Punk ushering in a new boom - nobody was saying; "that was a good build and solid PPV, it should draw a little more than Capitol Punishment, which would be a result in my eyes." It was expected to draw way, way more than Capitol Punishment and way, way more than the previous years MITB, and it didn't. Hence why WWE think it bombed, and others have to repeatedly point this out.

 

Wrestlemania 19 bombed. A card with Angle v Lesnar, Rock v Austin and Hogan v Vince bombed. But it still drew more than December to Dismember, so its not all bad, is it?

[twelve_grand]

Cool I'm going to survivor series as well. Did you get good seats?

 

Yeah decent - 100s hard camera side fairly central. Got it off stubhub (electronic print out) so fingers crossed no problems with it on the night. Whereabouts are you?

[kris-fogg]

I watched this raw with high hopes but like many of you they were not for filled.

i would have kept the begining bit exactly the same have the whole punk, trips, cena, shemus confrontation.

i genuinely thought it was great and giggled at abit of it.

 

now this is the bit i would have done differently.

have triple h say to punk would he like to do commentary by himself tonight with the whole pipe bomb thingy

and say the wwe universe is in for a treat tonight because everything is sorted tonight's main event will be shemus vs cena

and i will be the guest ref. but your all wondering how were going to fill a 2 hour show. well ive called up these guys.

 

and have the guys from ovw and fcw who need that bigger stage give them some matches on raw and see how the fans react to them. get triple h to bring a big tv out into the parking lot were all the superstars are fucking about having a good time and he sais to them watch raw tonight on me boy's because these are the superstars of the future.

and throughout the raw have the superstars looking more and more worried and start to grovel to tripps.

 

not to be exactly like that but it was a perfect opportunity for trips to show he still had brains and balls say fuck you to the boys ive thought 5 steps ahead of you

[300]

I'm going Survivor Series as well. I'm sitting in the 300's or the old garden before they tear it all up!

 

Wasn't money in the bank free for the UK this year? That normally adds about 20,000 buys doesn't it? I don

[tiger_rick]

I know Butch is big enough (and ugly enough har har) to speak for himself, but he hasn't been twisting any facts. The PPV bombed. WWE feel the PPV bombed. All reports coming from within WWE say of how disappointed they are with the buy rate, and that there is a huge contingent of Vinces trusted personnel who are doing the whole "I told you so" routine. Its almost universally accepted by everyone, including WWE, that the angle was a commercial bomb. Thats not me, Butch, Ian or anyone else twisted facts, thats us saying it like it is.

If they seriously think they can do something interesting for 3 weeks, stick it on a 1 match PPV card and expect commercial success, then they are fucking stupid. The whole business model at the moment is ridiculous. It's short term shit, no long term plan and no consistency. They are desperately trying to luck into something that will spark some interest. Judging everything on a three week time frame between PPV's will mean numbers will continue to fall.

 

Having a chuckle at Punk is fine, enjoy. It's missing the point though. The problem isn't CM Punk, the problem isn't MITB. The problem is that the people running the TV are blinkered morons.

[Bus Surfer]

The worst thing about Raw was Punk's horrid acting and faux excitement when Trips told him he was on commentary. The spazzy look on his face. It was like watching Eugene get told he was teaming with the Rock. Absolutely cringeworthy.