Loki Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 The point you're so horrifically missing, Richie, is that the WWE won't pretend that the muppets are real characters; Hornswaggle is a tongue-in-cheek sideshow for the kids. Whereas in that clip, and in ROH in general, these guys are pretending these moves are real, and they blatantly aren't. As Cornette said many years ago before he started taking the ROH dollar, wrestling is about moves that are safe to perform but look like they hurt. Those high impact acrobatics probably do a lot more damage than they actually appear to, which is completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted September 28, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2011 Over all, I find their shows much more exciting (and believable for that mater) than some of the mainstream shows that are out there. No you dont. If you and the other ROH followers were that secure in your fandom, you wouldnt be bashing (as you say) "other styles of wrestling". Isnt that what everyone else does to Ring of Honor? ROH is given such a free pass by everyone in wrestling, because all the dirtsheet arse lickers are there. All the ones who have a go at Triple H's chairshot to the hand but could care less about some donkey headbutting the ring post. What I love about ROH is that its ran by bitter pricks who have been fired from everywhere else. Kevin Kelly was desperate to get into TNA for years and made no bones about it. Jim Cornette was almost in tears when TNA sacked him. He loved working there so much he supported a product he didn't believe in, thus ruining any credibility he has. Cornette was travelling for hours to go to TNA events (because he doesnt fly) after WWE sacked him (another product he was bigging up that he didn't believe in). Dave Lagana is one of the heads there. The man responsable for some of the worst television in WWE history. The internet hated this bloke. The wrestlers hated this bloke. Now he's the voice of reason, even though he was the one who was the main guilty party in ignoring wrestlers, stooging them off and coming up with rotten ideas. Now everyone loves him because he's got this "We Want Wrestling" campaign. Well, if he wanted wrestling, why didn't he give it to us in all those years he worked for WWE in a main writing position? And these arseholes bash TNA. ROH is more delusional than TNA. At least TNA admits WWE is well ahead (to a fault) and thrives to better themselves. ROH just assumes they are better than WWE and TNA because "there restlas r betta". If you breed arrogance, it'll only take you so far. Its why Generation Meh is hated by everyone in the business, its why Samoa Joe is constantly buried for not doing what his fat face is told. Its why CM Punk was hated when he first came into WWE (but at least he's clever enough to play the game). Where was ROH's hollier than thou attitude when the fans were booing Nigel McGuinness and calling him a pussy because he couldnt remember his Cat's name a few years ago? Its a rotten little promotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2011 So you've never said on this forum that you've enjoyed the comedy spots from there? I recall saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richie Freebird Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 No you dont. If you and the other ROH followers were that secure in your fandom, you wouldnt be bashing (as you say) "other styles of wrestling". Isnt that what everyone else does to Ring of Honor? My Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted September 28, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2011 My “bashing” was actually a comparison for those who proclaimed ROH was shit because it has unrealistic moves. I brought up those things as a reminder that there are ridiculously un-real elements in the shows all over the scene, in every stle, even the styles that the anti smark brigade put their blind faith in. Unreal elements are part of the furniture of wrestling. That isnt the argument at all. What is needed is structure and build to be the central theme the shows. ROH dont have that. All they do, is get as much shit in as possible and hope they get over. Facial expressions are mediocre, general presentation of the wrestlers are terrible and the thought process of how to build to your main event in none-existent. Wrestling is about working a crowd. You cant learn that when you have a bunch of easily pleased spastics jumping up and down because they've seen moves they've only seen on a 15 quid DVD with printing paper on the cover they've been ripped off buying. The main event featured a Hart Foundation finish! After all that shite that went on in the other matches. The two small lads doing the Cotton Eye Joe dance into a german suplex and all that. How do you go from that to a Hart Foundation finish? Makes no sense at all. If the people on the undercard can survive such deadly offence, the World Tag Champions must look like pussies not to survive an elevated clothesline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2011 No you dont. If you and the other ROH followers were that secure in your fandom, you wouldnt be bashing (as you say) "other styles of wrestling". Isnt that what everyone else does to Ring of Honor? My Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Genius Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Is it just me or did this seem REALLY cheap. The matches were pretty good, some of the interview stuff wasn't bad, the logo stuff wasnt bad but the whole thing just seemed to be produced cheap by some peeps who haven't yet figured out how to film wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Devon Malcolm Posted September 28, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2011 Are some of the people that are saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Pitcos Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 No, people see their arse with ROH as it's promoted as SUPER SERIOUS REAL DAMNED ATHLETES WHO LIVE TO COMPETE IN A DAMNED SPORT. They shove that down your throat and then come out with stupid shit. That's far more insulting to me. It's not as if people are pretending that WWE and TNA are bastions of realism. Exactly. If ROH promote themselves by bragging "we're real wrestling, our promotion doesn't do silly shite like those promotions that make money" then do matches that are far sillier than anything that happens in WWE matches, their claims just don't ring true. Except to idiots who will believe all that shite is realistic just because they blindly accept everything said by the likes of Fin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I agree with the general consensus that those super-contrived spots are pretty counter-productive, especially if you are promoting wrestling as a super-serial "sport", but I don't really agree with what I have quoted here: The main event featured a Hart Foundation finish! After all that shite that went on in the other matches. The two small lads doing the Cotton Eye Joe dance into a german suplex and all that. How do you go from that to a Hart Foundation finish? Makes no sense at all. If the people on the undercard can survive such deadly offence, the World Tag Champions must look like pussies not to survive an elevated clothesline. There are plenty of examples of major cards where there have been undercards featuring crazy shit, but main event matches that finish with something weak. Back in 1999/2000 it wouldn't have been strange to see the Dudley Boyz smashing the Hardy Boys over the head with brutal chair shots (that don't finish the match, and in fact might be a throw-away spot in the first 5 minutes) then see a match later than ends with The Rock dropping a flashy elbow. WCW was the same; there might be a Benoit/Saturn style match in the midcard that was brutal as all hell, tables, chairs etc... then you'd have a Piper/Hogan dodderfest in the main event. I honestly don't think that sort of thing matters, as the moves you hit only really matter if you are over. One eye poke from Piper would get more reaction than some random Luchador in an opening match hitting a 450 splash. The WCW Cruisers were always having mental/spot-heavy matches on Nitros and PPVs, but they didn't overshadow the main events, because the viewer knew they weren't nearly as important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted September 28, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2011 WCW and WWF differentiated throughout the card. Its why nobody compared that Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Mysterio to the Hulk Hogan vs Roddy Piper main event at Halloween Havoc 97. Ring of Honor promotes this "pure wrestling" product. In a major promotion, you have a meat pie with a cruiserweight match then you have salad with your hardcore match and then you down a nice pint for the main event. You fans know if John Cena gets hit with the Zack Attack or Goldberg gets put in the Texas Cloverleaf, they arent going to be put down as easy as Silver King or El Dandy (although who are we to doubt him?). They are over enough to recognise this. ROH's show just debuted the other night. They should try and establish the characters roles on the show instead of giving us "yay look at me" moves instead. I didnt know who half these mentals were. Now when ROH debuted on HD Net, Jerry Lynn and Austin Aries were 100% established for me. One was a grizzled veteran and the other was a arrogant prick playboy. That effected me so much more than what they did in the ring. The ROH shows bombard you with so much shite than when the show ends with a Hart Attack finish, it cant make much sense. And thats not even Haas and Benjimans fault. They have their move set and they dont need to use such attention seeking cheap tactics. Haas and Benjiman will probably be wrestling the 100 movez per minute brigade as well, because they are in the same division as them. If it was Richards using a Hart Foundation finish in the final match fair enough. He's well clear of the tag division. But how impressive do Haas and Benjiman look when they look weaker than the Head Drop Express earlier on in the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members neil's bitch Posted September 28, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2011 Not to be a kill joy or anything, but if you dont enjoy ROH, then fair enough....dont watch the TV show. I personally though it was allright, not amazing but a decent start, and i'm not a big ROH fan. Regardless of what everybody is saying, the ROH guys love it to death, and the non-ROH guys think its the shits because of "MOOVEZ!!!111!!~". But Again if its not your cup of tea, why not leave it out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Eddie Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 WCW and WWF differentiated throughout the card. Its why nobody compared that Eddie Guerrero vs Rey Mysterio to the Hulk Hogan vs Roddy Piper main event at Halloween Havoc 97. Ring of Honor promotes this "pure wrestling" product. In a major promotion, you have a meat pie with a cruiserweight match then you have salad with your hardcore match and then you down a nice pint for the main event. The ROH shows bombard you with so much shite than when the show ends with a Hart Attack finish, it cant make much sense. And thats not even Haas and Benjimans fault. They have their move set and they dont need to use such attention seeking cheap tactics. Haas and Benjiman will probably be wrestling the 100 movez per minute brigade as well, because they are in the same division as them. If it was Richards using a Hart Foundation finish in the final match fair enough. He's well clear of the tag division. But how impressive do Haas and Benjiman look when they look weaker than the Head Drop Express earlier on in the night. It's definitely more of a detriment to a promotion like RoH, for sure. But it's still the undercard, y'know. They aren't as established and over as The Kings or WGTT so they need to show off a bit to try and get over, plus they are much smaller, so their offense arguably needs to be a bit meaner looking (not that the contrived shit is mean looking, thinking more of the head-droppy stuff). Perhaps they need to be more innovative with their moves to be able to beat the veteran Tag Teams? --Just read your edit, Ian-- I agree they didn't perhaps pick the best two matches to try and win over new fans. I guess my general point is that after I watched the show, I wasn't underwhelmed by the tag team main event (or it's finish) because of the other match earlier. The first felt more like a youngsters/cruiser tag match, and the main event felt like a proper tag title match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators PowerButchi Posted September 28, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2011 Not to be a kill joy or anything, but if you dont enjoy ROH, then fair enough....dont watch the TV show. It's not as if everyone complaining does watch ROH. It was a new TV show on half decent broadcast TV. So I, like many I imagine, gave it a go same as I have for Wrestlelicious, Lucha Libre USA, NWA Hollywood, WSX and god knows what else. I've watched it, didn't enjoy it too much, I'll give it another fortnight and if it's no better then I'll fuck it off, same as most people who've complained about it in this thread will. It's not like the mongs who whinge and bitch and moan about Raw and Impact every sodding week and then continue to tune in and bitch and moan and complain every week. It's apples and oranges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members IANdrewDiceClay Posted September 28, 2011 Paid Members Share Posted September 28, 2011 It's definitely more of a detriment to a promotion like RoH, for sure. But it's still the undercard, y'know. They aren't as established and over as The Kings or WGTT so they need to show off a bit to try and get over, plus they are much smaller, so their offense arguably needs to be a bit meaner looking (not that the contrived shit is mean looking, thinking more of the head-droppy stuff). Perhaps they need to be more innovative with their moves to be able to beat the veteran Tag Teams? I edited my post, so you might not have seen my main point I was trying to make, so apologies. My main point isnt about the over the top moves themselves. Its that they people doing them havent gotten themselves over yet. You mentioned the Rock's People's Elbow. The Rock was doing a move that was over because it was him doing it. Most moves are. A legdrop is a shit finish. The stunner wasnt tearing down houses when Disco Inferno was doing it either. The guys doing the silly offence are known as "those lads doing the class moves". The move is more over than the people doing it. Its why I never had any problem with RVD. A lot of his offence was unbelievably stupid. But he was so over in ECW and WWF because of how arrogant and full of himself he was. If your going to debut a show on TV, I want to learn about the people and feel compelled to follow them every week. Its the same problem TNA has. You can do the moves later. One thing about Austin Aries is, he can outwork anyone on TV at the minute in my opinion, but he doesnt half know where the camera is when he's doing it. It goes back to my post on the first page. If ROH had a roster with Austin Aries, Kurt Angle, Robert Roode, AJ Styles and those type of workers, who know how to work the gimmick, I'd watch every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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