The moment you thought about quitting wrestling

[dopper]

5 pages of people mentioning all kinds of shit with no critisism, then a few mentions of Cena lead to the people posting it being questioned for why they hate him and people summizing it's just because it's the cool thing to do.

 

I'm all for discussion and everything but a lot of people on here seem to dismiss anyone critisizing John Cena as someone doing it just to get a reaction.

 

Personally I find his matches hard to enjoy because his offence and his selling - so everything he does inside a wrestling ring - are so phony looking (something I've never said about any other WWE main eventer ever) that I can't suspend my disbelief, and I have the same problem with his promos. I love psychology in a match where the heel breaks down the babyface until he can muster up a comeback. That's probably the biggest critisism of Cena (and there are many), that he STILL hasn't grasped the concept that if somebody works for 10 minutes on your arm or leg you really shouldn't be running around or picking people up 2 minutes later.

So there is literally nothing about John Cena I enjoy watching.

 

... just kidding, I only don't like him because it's the cool thing to do.

 

I'm something of a Cena fan (I thought he was a shoe-in for 'wrestler of the year' in 2007 and by far the most consistent headliner in 2009 as well) and I disagree with pretty much everything you've said there, re. Cena's actual working ability (I even think he's a decent promo) but I do think you raise a valid point: If people dislike Cena that much and he's such a big part of the product then I'd say that's a perfectly valid reason for them to jack it in.

His fans can defend his actual matches, promos, angles, etc. as much as they want but if someone doesn't find any of them entertaining and they are a big part of the show then I can see why it would make them quit.

 

Absolutely.

 

I never missed more than 3 or 4 consecutive episodes of Raw or pay-per-views from 1993 all the way through until earlier this year.

 

Despite my dislike of Cena, I always tuned in because at least when he faced the other main eventers (with the exception of Sheamus) they were good enough workers to carry him to decent matches in decent feuds imo.

 

So the final straw for me was the night Nexus attacked Cena. Seeing legitimate rookies feuding with John Cena was such a horrible prospect in my mind that I haven't watched a Raw or ppv since that night.

 

I still read reviews of the shows each Tuesday and if I see something interesting I will then watch a repeat, but it hasn't happened yet.

[A.P.]

5 pages of people mentioning all kinds of shit with no critisism, then a few mentions of Cena lead to the people posting it being questioned for why they hate him and people summizing it's just because it's the cool thing to do.

 

I'm all for discussion and everything but a lot of people on here seem to dismiss anyone critisizing John Cena as someone doing it just to get a reaction.

 

Personally I find his matches hard to enjoy because his offence and his selling - so everything he does inside a wrestling ring - are so phony looking (something I've never said about any other WWE main eventer ever) that I can't suspend my disbelief, and I have the same problem with his promos. I love psychology in a match where the heel breaks down the babyface until he can muster up a comeback. That's probably the biggest critisism of Cena (and there are many), that he STILL hasn't grasped the concept that if somebody works for 10 minutes on your arm or leg you really shouldn't be running around or picking people up 2 minutes later.

So there is literally nothing about John Cena I enjoy watching.

 

... just kidding, I only don't like him because it's the cool thing to do.

 

I'm something of a Cena fan (I thought he was a shoe-in for 'wrestler of the year' in 2007 and by far the most consistent headliner in 2009 as well) and I disagree with pretty much everything you've said there, re. Cena's actual working ability (I even think he's a decent promo) but I do think you raise a valid point: If people dislike Cena that much and he's such a big part of the product then I'd say that's a perfectly valid reason for them to jack it in.

His fans can defend his actual matches, promos, angles, etc. as much as they want but if someone doesn't find any of them entertaining and they are a big part of the show then I can see why it would make them quit.

 

Absolutely.

 

I never missed more than 3 or 4 consecutive episodes of Raw or pay-per-views from 1993 all the way through until earlier this year.

 

Despite my dislike of Cena, I always tuned in because at least when he faced the other main eventers (with the exception of Sheamus) they were good enough workers to carry him to decent matches in decent feuds imo.

 

So the final straw for me was the night Nexus attacked Cena. Seeing legitimate rookies feuding with John Cena was such a horrible prospect in my mind that I haven't watched a Raw or ppv since that night.

 

I still read reviews of the shows each Tuesday and if I see something interesting I will then watch a repeat, but it hasn't happened yet.

 

I'd never really thought about this, but John Cena does actually play a large part in stopping me watching Raw at present, and I take the same approach as above and just read reports on Tuesday morning. That is why I think Cena is so hated, because the hatred from the fans goes beyond just hating his character, and is present because Cena actually prevents some of us from actually enjoying something we genuinely love. But the thing to remember is that Cena just goes out and does as he is told (i.e. spray painting JBL is poopy on a limo) and does what he is allowed to get away with (i.e. shit selling and ridiculous comebacks), so really we are hating Vince and the WWE for insulting us, and not actually Cena. He is just the scapegoat who we can channel all of our frustrations at current WWE through because he is the benchmark for the current state of play.

 

I remember there was a period in probably 2008/2009 where I stopped watching WWE also, and that was larglely because of Triple H, and because I grew very frustrated with him burying other wrestlers in his promos and getting clean wins over all and sundry. However, in retrospect, he was just doing what he was told and what he was allowed to get away with (although the argument against Triple H is a big stronger due to his stroke in the company).

 

The point is, it seems there is always a character in wrestling who it is popular to hate, but really what is hated is what he stands for and what he is preventing us from enjoying and what he is forcing us to endure. And really, all of these matters beging and end with Vince, and Stephanie (and maybe Triple H).

[Supremo]

Deciding that there's a chance it won't work and so therefore never doing at all is a hundred times worse than giving it a genuine go and then every now and then failing. "It's hard to do, and I might not succeed, so I won't try at all," is hardly a mind set that's going to create changes or progress. If you want Nexus to be stars then fucking push them as such, properly.

But they don't have the ability to back up such a push. No-one does. I'm not saying that's not the fault of WWE, it's their development system that should get these guys ready after all, but you can surely see why they don't push these new guys to the moon, because none of them can back it up. Since Orton, Batista and Cena, how many guys who've got that level of ability have come through? Hardly any. They've got guys who can talk but not work well enough, guys who can talk well and work well but don't look great, etc.

I was going to agree with you at first, their flawed developmental system is definitely a huge problem that's only going to get worse before it gets better, but then I gave it a moment's thought and decided otherwise. Sure, there's a high percentage of guys on NXT and in FCW that are the same generic big man who can neither cut much of a promo or hold their own in a singles match, but what about the generation that came just before them? Why hasn't WWE properly pushed any of them? I'm talking about guys like Evan Bourne, The Miz, Kofi Kingston and CM Punk. Granted, Kofi's a bit of a clumsy tit, but otherwise I don't see any reason why they haven't given any of those guys a fair crack at the whip, particularly when all of them have done brilliantly when given one of those fake pushes. The Miz was ready over a year ago, and that Cena feud had the chance to make a superstar out of him, but they decided against it and held his push off for ages, during which time we've been having the same guys having the same matches on top, with buyrates going lower than we've seen in a decade. Bourne on the other hand continues to shine whenever they push him, with a unique enough style and look that he could become RAW's answer to Rey Mysterio. It's just a shame that they seemingly fluctuate between pushing him and burying him literally by the week. Look at Kofi, too. During that feud with Orton they could've definitely pulled the trigger and made something of him. Remember that incredible reaction he got when he leg dropped Randy at Madison Square Garden? And then what? They just dropped it out of nowhere and he's a complete nobody now. And don't get me started on CM Punk. His feud with Jeff Hardy was one of their best in years, he was producing the goods by the bucketload, and then he suddenly got demoted for reasons other than his performances, his talent, and his potential. It's bullshit to say they don't have anyone to make a star out of. They have loads.

 

Shaemus is about the best guy to come through in the last 5 years and they've pushed him to the moon. He's still not that over.

They haven't pushed him to the moon, it just seems like they have because they've given him more of a push than they've given anyone in ages. It's still not a proper push, though, and that's why he's not over. He's won his first World Title because John Cena slipped onto a table and he won his second World Title by stealing a pin in a multi-man match. Plus, who can forget

Pushed to the moon and still not over? Rubbish. His push and how over he is are in direct correlation. They've sort of given him a big push, but not really, and so accordinly he's sort of half over, but not really.

 

A star is a star is a star. You know, someone who can sell tickets, generate buys and garner publicity at the top of your card. A money player.

Sorry, I understand the general definition, it's just names like Sonnen and Machida confuse the issue. Those guys are over because of what they've done in the ring.

No they're not. Machida's a star because of the Countdown special they put together before his fight with Rashad and Sonnen's a star because of the Countdown special and internet campaign they put together before his fight with Anderson, combined with his incredible mic work at conventions, press conferences and in interviews. Before those Countdown shows both guys were just random blokes on the undercard who could never finish fights. You say these guys looked impressive against Okami or whatever, but if I can't even remember those fights then there's not a chance in hell that the UFC's casual pay per view buyer can. That's what we're playing with here. It's not about the hardcore fans who know about guys from their MMA debut onwards, it's about those 600,000 or so people who buy or don't buy on a show to show basis, allowing for that huge fluctuation in buys depending on how each show is promoted. Guys can have incredible records, full of incredible performances, but until the UFC makes a star out of them then they may as well be Gabe Ruediger because none of those casual fans are going to know who they are and they aren't going to make a single bit of difference to business. It's all about how the UFC makes them a star.

 

You mention Rashad vs. Rampage. That sold of the back of the awesome exchanges on the Ultimate Fighter. UFC are putting real guys in real fights and letting real tension sell it. They aren't making it all up.

They're still editing things and selecting story line threads that will increase marketability and result in maximum interest in both the fighters and their fights. And if anything, I'd say rummaging through three months of footage to find moments you can edit to tell your stories is a hundred times harder than being able to script them entirely.

 

Also, when you talk about selling tickets, you're on dodgy ground. UFC sells out shows like the WWF and WCW did in 1998. They didn't normally need to anounce a card.

Completely untrue. Thanks to the way in which they refuse to lower their high ticket prices no matter what, it's actually the complete opposite of that, with cards, in particular main events, playing a massive part in whether a show sells out of not, with many of them not doing so for that very reason. For instance, I just checked and I can still get five very good seats for UFC 119, which is only a week away.

 

The WWE are taking guys who have little experience, average ability and a good look and trying to convince people that they are great. The UFC are taking people who have proved that they have a really high skill level and are trying to convince people that they are great. Surely you can see the massive difference?

There's a difference though in that the skill level required to be a star in pro-wrestling is the percieved skill level, created by the bookers. John Cena isn't a particularly good worker, but he's booked as a world beater in their portrayed reality and so accordingly he's accepted as such by the fans. If guys are good at promos, but not particularly good at having twenty five minute matches, then you hide their weaknesses and put them in shorter, more exciting matches. Goldberg's the case in point. He couldn't work WWE style, and witnessing him having a 30 minute bout with Triple H was painful to watch, but that doesn't mean he couldn't be a star. He was one of the biggest of the decade. Fuck, you could take one of those Nexus guys, pick the worst one out of the lot, one who can neither cut a promo or work, and you could still make a star out of him if you played it correctly. You give him a manager and you have him beat guys quickly and with ease. Any other talent they have, such as the talent Daniel Bryan has, is just a bonus in terms of what you have to work with. But instead of making a star out of him they book him to lose something like ten matches in a row, whilst the announcers bury him for a laugh.

 

If The Rock and Stone Cold came round today then they'd first be introduced in NXT challenges that made them look like twats, then they'd be forced to spend a decade feuding over the Intercontinental Title in opening matches on Smackdown, then they'd be given a push for about a month, then it'd be pulled out from under them, rinse and repeat.

You mean The Rock and Stone Cold who's initial pushes absolutely fucking bombed?

At least they got the push in the first place! And then when they both initially failed at least the company had the patience to give them another shot with new characters and ideas. That would never happen in this day and age. They'd either get one of those fake pushes that lasts a month, or if they actually managed to get over then they'd have their legs cut out from under them just before they brock through. I dunno, maybe Shane McMahon could beat them up or something. Or they could be booked to run around the arena like a fucking girl.

[PowerButchi]

You mean The Rock and Stone Cold who's initial pushes absolutely fucking bombed?

At least they got the push in the first place!

 

When was getting your arse handed to you by Savio Vega a push?

[TheBigBoot]

 

That show had MX/Zenk & Pillman, Steiners/Doom and Luger/Flair in a Hell in a Cell type Cage. There

Edited September 16, 2010 by TheBigBoot

[Klugschei]

[Carbomb]

[quote name='Klugschei

[TheBigBoot]

Has anyone posted this?

I loved it.

I know you're only smark-baiting here, but I must admit I didn't like it. I didn't have a problem with them putting the belt on him so much, it was the fact that they retired the title while he held it. I know the Cruiserweight championship had been treated like a joke for years, but I still think it was very sad for it to end it's run as a comedy title with a midget champion. Only bothered me a little bit though, I wasn't going to turn the TV off in disgust or anything like that.

 

It was indeed a silly way for it to end (I would have liked something like they did with Dreamer/RVD when they retired the Hardcore title with say Noble/Rey for Rey's comeback match or something - not even PPV you could stick it on free TV) but what I find more interesting is that Hornswoggle was something of an internet favourite (or at least a UKFF favourite) until they stuck a title on him/made him a McMahon. At the time it seemed there were a large number who thought his theme tune was great (at least until Finlay started using it which they and I hated), a few who thought the Cruiserweight title win/feud with Noble was funny, a few who absolutely hated it and majority who weren

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Steve Austin was told by WWF's merchandise department that Marc Mero and Mark Henry were going to be the big merchandise sellers of 1997 and they didnt see anything in him as far as marketability went. People always get onto WCW about not knowing what to do with Austin, but WWF didnt really have much for him either initially.

[Wendell Cooley]

Steve Austin was told by WWF's merchandise department that Marc Mero and Mark Henry were going to be the big merchandise sellers of 1997 and they didnt see anything in him as far as marketability went. People always get onto WCW about not knowing what to do with Austin, but WWF didnt really have much for him either initially.

 

Out of interest, was Austin's first '3:16' speech at KOTR '96 all his own work or was it scripted?

[IANdrewDiceClay]

Steve Austin was told by WWF's merchandise department that Marc Mero and Mark Henry were going to be the big merchandise sellers of 1997 and they didnt see anything in him as far as marketability went. People always get onto WCW about not knowing what to do with Austin, but WWF didnt really have much for him either initially.

 

Out of interest, was Austin's first '3:16' speech at KOTR '96 all his own work or was it scripted?

I remember Austins documentary where it said Michael Hayes told him to cut a promo on Jake Roberts and his god-squad character, and Austin came up with "Austin 3:16". It is brilliant, though. Austin came up with alot of ideas for his t-shirts as well. He was very hands on with his character. It's funny, because Hogan and Austin were both particular of how they were used and both had little quips in refusing to do something, according to wrestlers going shoot interviews. It always comes up that Austin would apparently say "I dont think the Stone Cold character would you do that" and thus wouldnt do it. Hogan would always say "that doesnt work for me, brother". I suppose you have to be very picky and paranoid if your at the very top.

 

Anyone remember the "SID 3:16" signs early 90s WCW PPV's? WCW Magazine had an article about it when Sid return in 1999, claiming credit for the Austin 3:16 success. WCW were getting desperate at the time of course.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Ian_hitmanhart

[Kirk_dougall]

 

As someone who did quit wrestling for almost 10 years I do feel i missed out on alot of god stuff from what I've read on here. I stopped watching it seriously around 1999, main reason as silly as it may sound was I watched wrestling with shadows on BBC and I was a huge Hart fan. Watching that just confirmed to me that wrestling is all scripted which at 14 i already knew but occasionaly something would happen which would make me think otherwise. I watched the odd show but then my parents cancelled sky sports so that was that. I started paying for it myself around 2000, I think it was when C4 started showing some WWF and it got me wanting to watch again. I watched the invasion storyline and then stopped again after the final Invasion PPV. started watching again in Jan when I read on the net that Bret was making a comeback. I suppose although I have the disadvantage of not knowing what's happened in WWE for the last 9 years ( for example I pretty much missed all of Batistas career) I have the advantage of everything being fresh to me. Despite this I still cant like Cena I hate his promos but most of all I hate his matches they consist of the same crap every week. He gets beaten on his offence consists of punches etc and the occasional simple slam or suplex up until his predictable come back.... Flying shoulder, flying shoulder, opponent misses punch Cena does his little slam, 5 knuckle shuffle and then the AA. His only good matches are gimmicky ones like the ones he had with Batista. Ive only been watching 9 months and I'm already tired of him.

 

*if my spelling etc is off apologies I'm on my phone

Edited September 17, 2010 by Kirk_dougall

[Wendell Cooley]

Steve Austin was told by WWF's merchandise department that Marc Mero and Mark Henry were going to be the big merchandise sellers of 1997 and they didnt see anything in him as far as marketability went. People always get onto WCW about not knowing what to do with Austin, but WWF didnt really have much for him either initially.

 

Out of interest, was Austin's first '3:16' speech at KOTR '96 all his own work or was it scripted?

I remember Austins documentary where it said Michael Hayes told him to cut a promo on Jake Roberts and his god-squad character, and Austin came up with "Austin 3:16". It is brilliant, though. Austin came up with alot of ideas for his t-shirts as well. He was very hands on with his character. It's funny, because Hogan and Austin were both particular of how they were used and both had little quips in refusing to do something, according to wrestlers going shoot interviews. It always comes up that Austin would apparently say "I dont think the Stone Cold character would you do that" and thus wouldnt do it. Hogan would always say "that doesnt work for me, brother". I suppose you have to be very picky and paranoid if your at the very top.

 

Anyone remember the "SID 3:16" signs early 90s WCW PPV's? WCW Magazine had an article about it when Sid return in 1999, claiming credit for the Austin 3:16 success. WCW were getting desperate at the time of course.

 

Ah, cheers. Interesting about the Sid signs too.

 

There was a guy who used to show up at sports events in America wearing a rainbow wig and holding a sign with 'John 3:16' on it, so maybe that's where the whole idea comes from.

 

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/4...th-those-john-3

Edited September 17, 2010 by Wendell Cooley

[Ghostface1982]

I enjoyed about 95% of the things people have almost quit for in this thread.

[The Dart]

 

As someone who did quit wrestling for almost 10 years I do feel i missed out on alot of god stuff from what I've read on here. I stopped watching it seriously around 1999, main reason as silly as it may sound was I watched wrestling with shadows on BBC and I was a huge Hart fan. Watching that just confirmed to me that wrestling is all scripted which at 14 i already knew but occasionaly something would happen which would make me think otherwise. I watched the odd show but then my parents cancelled sky sports so that was that. I started paying for it myself around 2000, I think it was when C4 started showing some WWF and it got me wanting to watch again. I watched the invasion storyline and then stopped again after the final Invasion PPV. started watching again in Jan when I read on the net that Bret was making a comeback. I suppose although I have the disadvantage of not knowing what's happened in WWE for the last 9 years ( for example I pretty much missed all of Batistas career) I have the advantage of everything being fresh to me. Despite this I still cant like Cena I hate his promos but most of all I hate his matches they consist of the same crap every week. He gets beaten on his offence consists of punches etc and the occasional simple slam or suplex up until his predictable come back.... Flying shoulder, flying shoulder, opponent misses punch Cena does his little slam, 5 knuckle shuffle and then the AA. His only good matches are gimmicky ones like the ones he had with Batista. Ive only been watching 9 months and I'm already tired of him.

 

*if my spelling etc is off apologies I'm on my phone

 

Funny that it confirmed to you that wrestling is all scripted, yet is essentially about an event that wasn't scripted!