UKFF Questions Thread V2

[Vamp]

That was the original point of the Invasion angle though: To use WWF TV to repair the damage to the WCW brand name so that they could eventually restart it as a going concern with TV shows, Pay Per Views etc, of it's own.

 

Incidentally, I'd also question whether networks would've been so quick to turn it down if they'd the big stars involved.

 

Yeah, and I doubt it would have ever worked. You don't rebuild a TV brand by having it on your TV show. No one wanted WCW, that was the problem. They would have had a hell of a repair job to do without damaging their own brand. That and they had to re-establish WCW in front of WWF fans. And yeah, they'd have still turned it down even with the big stars. The brand was shit. They wouldn't have cared. It's a hard job selling a wrestling show as it is, let alone one that most of the viewers had left.

 

Everybody there (except maybe Sting) would've came if the money was right, and it easily could've been. Sure, they were getting paid loads from Time Warner but could've made a lot more from Pay Per View bonuses alone. As mentioned before, if the Invasion Pay Per View could draw 770,000 buys without the genuine WCW stars (and The Rock, for that matter) then how much could they have drawn with them?

 

Why? Would you? I wouldn't. I'd sit at home. And you're way oversimplying it when it comes to Goldberg, Nash and Hogan love the business, Goldberg supposedly doesn't care one way or the other. And isn't he one of the intelligent ones who makes money elsewhere? Even with the big stars and even if the Invasion angle was a massive cash cow, the momentum would have died eventually and then you'd be left with ridiculous contracts for your main eventers.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think buying the WCW guys out would've been the best option, just better than what they did do. Ian's right, they could've made it work without the big names just by protecting the people they did have, instead of burying them. DDP for example got a massive reaction when he debuted, and then got fed to the Undertaker and his missus for no apparent reason. If they'd protected the bulk of them and made a concentrated effort to get them over as legitimate stars, they'd easily have been able to keep it going until the likes of Nash, Steiner, Goldberg etc, were available.

 

What? You've just tried to argue that it was. And yes, that fantasy scenario where everyone comes in is obviously better than what they did. Jeesh. That's the most redundant statement imaginable. Although you're right about the DDP thing, which I'd competely forgotten about when I was thinking about the booking earlier, that's probably the other big thing to change.

[No use for a nick]

Regarding the invasion, what about TEMPORAILY turning Austin heel getting him back as Stunning Steve, Jericho as Lioneheart and maybe a couple others, Farooq as Ron Simmons, Big Show as The Giant, etc. evening up the odds and telling a story that made WCW important? Once WCW had been acquired, as a brand, it would have made sense to make it look as important as possible. Obviously you would still have all the real WCW guys, but it would have helped immensely IMO.

 

Now all of a sudden the star power is not an issue any longer.

 

With all the rational arguments in the world, no chance VKM would have ever done it right, hell he never used War Games (despite HHH's insistence), Halloween Havoc and Starrcade!

[PowerButchi]

I don't think Steve Austin in trunks with stars on them, pretending to use a video camera and wearing a blonde wig would have been the best option for the invasion to be honest.

[King Pitcos]

Going in they had three choices: Stump up to buy the big names out of their Time Warner contracts,

 

Why does everyone oversimplify that to present it as a viable option?

Nobody does, unless they're a grade-A idiot. It's common knowledge to all but a divot that the WWF couldn't feasibly have hired Goldberg, Sting and co. The people who think that was an option are no better than the "WrestleMania shud b in London nxt yr" lot. Their logic makes no sense. If offering mental contracts to Sting, Goldberg and them boys was such a good idea, WCW wouldn't have been sold to Vince for fuck-all in 2001 in the first place because it would've been thriving. "Nothing could ever go wrong from giving all of our top wrestlers incentiveless megabucks contracts and the legal right to refuse to lose a match."

 

In a real-world sense, anyone would be hard-pressed on making the Invasion sustainable. I think a lot of people who bought the first PPV expected a big name surprise at it. They absolutely fucked up everything with DDP, but even if they hadn't, it was asking a lot to keep the WCW team strong for a long period of time with just him and Booker T. I think Flair reckoned he could've been in the WWF a lot sooner than he was, but even then, it's a struggle. I'd have considered putting Rock on the WCW side (rather than Austin) because of how Vince and Austin fucked him over at WrestleMania.

 

If they'd left it another eighteen months or two years until they could get the big names on feasible contracts, it might have been too late for anything WCW to be relevant, and what do you do with the likes of DDP and Booker in the meantime? It was doomed from the start.

[Halitosis Romantic]

Regarding the invasion, what about TEMPORAILY turning Austin heel getting him back as Stunning Steve, Jericho as Lioneheart and maybe a couple others, Farooq as Ron Simmons, Big Show as The Giant, etc. evening up the odds and telling a story that made WCW important? Once WCW had been acquired, as a brand, it would have made sense to make it look as important as possible. Obviously you would still have all the real WCW guys, but it would have helped immensely IMO.

 

That's either a satirical masterwork, or you've been at the bath salts.

[unfitfinlay]

That was the original point of the Invasion angle though: To use WWF TV to repair the damage to the WCW brand name so that they could eventually restart it as a going concern with TV shows, Pay Per Views etc, of it's own.

 

Incidentally, I'd also question whether networks would've been so quick to turn it down if they'd the big stars involved.

 

Yeah, and I doubt it would have ever worked. You don't rebuild a TV brand by having it on your TV show. No one wanted WCW, that was the problem. They would have had a hell of a repair job to do without damaging their own brand. That and they had to re-establish WCW in front of WWF fans. And yeah, they'd have still turned it down even with the big stars. The brand was shit. They wouldn't have cared. It's a hard job selling a wrestling show as it is, let alone one that most of the viewers had left.

 

The WCW brand name was damaged but it wasn't completely destroyed until the WWF destroyed it. At their worst they were still doing some of the highest ratings on TBS and TNT and, at the risk of harping on about it, the Invasion buy rate proves that there was still substantial interest there amongst fans.

 

We'll never know if they could've repaired the damage but I think it could've worked. After all, UPN didn't tell them to fuck right off when they told them they'd be paying the same amount of money for half the company did they?

 

Everybody there (except maybe Sting) would've came if the money was right, and it easily could've been. Sure, they were getting paid loads from Time Warner but could've made a lot more from Pay Per View bonuses alone. As mentioned before, if the Invasion Pay Per View could draw 770,000 buys without the genuine WCW stars (and The Rock, for that matter) then how much could they have drawn with them?

 

Why? Would you? I wouldn't. I'd sit at home. And you're way oversimplying it when it comes to Goldberg, Nash and Hogan love the business, Goldberg supposedly doesn't care one way or the other. And isn't he one of the intelligent ones who makes money elsewhere? Even with the big stars and even if the Invasion angle was a massive cash cow, the momentum would have died eventually and then you'd be left with ridiculous contracts for your main eventers.

 

I don't think I'm over simplifying at all. Goldberg might not like wrestling but he really likes money. Goldberg vs Austin or Goldberg vs Rock as part of a WCW vs WWF feud in 2001 would've been amongst the biggest Pay Per View matches of all time and he'd have made far more money than he would've staying at home.

 

You're also forgetting that Goldberg did eventually take a buy out and join the WWF on a massive contract with a limited amount of dates. Christ, they gave Hogan a contract that said that he'd be the highest paid person on any Pay Per View he worked, regardless of his position on the card. They gave into their demands anyway, just at the wrong time.

 

For what it's worth, I don't think buying the WCW guys out would've been the best option, just better than what they did do. Ian's right, they could've made it work without the big names just by protecting the people they did have, instead of burying them. DDP for example got a massive reaction when he debuted, and then got fed to the Undertaker and his missus for no apparent reason. If they'd protected the bulk of them and made a concentrated effort to get them over as legitimate stars, they'd easily have been able to keep it going until the likes of Nash, Steiner, Goldberg etc, were available.

 

What? You've just tried to argue that it was. And yes, that fantasy scenario where everyone comes in is obviously better than what they did. Jeesh. That's the most redundant statement imaginable. Although you're right about the DDP thing, which I'd competely forgotten about when I was thinking about the booking earlier, that's probably the other big thing to change.

 

No I haven't. What I originally said was:

 

Going in they had three choices: Stump up to buy the big names out of their Time Warner contracts, book the WCW guys they DID have as strongly as possible to get them over as stars, or just bury lot of them after a month, pissing away hundreds of millions of dollars in the process. They went with the stupidest option.

 

You picked out the first part and said it wasn't a viable option and I disagree. It was one of only two options they had to actually make big money from the storyline. The best way would've been turning the guys they did have into legit draws (which would've given them massive leverage when negotiating with your Goldberg's, Nash's later on.) If they didn't have the confidence in their ability to do that then there was no alternative but to shell out and bring in people that would. Instead they went with the third option and just killed the storyline for a bizarre ego boost.

 

DDP wasn't the only WCW guy to be buried by the booking either. Booker was portrayed as a Rock rip off who couldn't beat him even with a two on one advantage. In fact the only "Invader" who was given any credibility at all was RVD.

 

Regarding the invasion, what about TEMPORAILY turning Austin heel getting him back as Stunning Steve, Jericho as Lioneheart and maybe a couple others, Farooq as Ron Simmons, Big Show as The Giant, etc. evening up the odds and telling a story that made WCW important? Once WCW had been acquired, as a brand, it would have made sense to make it look as important as possible. Obviously you would still have all the real WCW guys, but it would have helped immensely IMO.

 

Now all of a sudden the star power is not an issue any longer.

 

Well, it's better than how Cornette would've booked it anyway.

[Fox Piss]

Anybody know anything about the main security guy for the WWF during the attitude days. Wide bastard who used to wear leather cap.

[CleetusVanDamme]

Booker was portrayed as a Rock rip off

 

That wasn't WWE's doing. See WCW 2000. He was a Rock rip-off. A shameless one.

[PowerButchi]

Anybody know anything about the main security guy for the WWF during the attitude days. Wide bastard who used to wear leather cap.

 

Jim Dotson? I was always expecting him to end up in a match with someone. Did he? I remember he had an issue with Steve Blackman on WWF tv at one point.

[Halitosis Romantic]

Someone LOVED Jim Dotson

[Vamp]

The WCW brand name was damaged but it wasn't completely destroyed until the WWF destroyed it. At their worst they were still doing some of the highest ratings on TBS and TNT and, at the risk of harping on about it, the Invasion buy rate proves that there was still substantial interest there amongst fans.

 

Hence why WWE tried to sell it around and nobody was interested. The brand was dead by that point. And it's not like Invasion was at all a WCW show. It's not really proof of the strength of the brand. It was still a WWF show. The Invasion buyrate does prove the potential of the invasion angle, it doesn't really prove the strength of WCW's brand.

 

After all, UPN didn't tell them to fuck right off when they told them they'd be paying the same amount of money for half the company did they?

 

No they didn't, but they did say no when the WWF asked if they could have the WCW show. Which is rather more the point.

 

The best way would've been turning the guys they did have into legit draws (which would've given them massive leverage when negotiating with your Goldberg's, Nash's later on.)

 

These were guys who'd worked in other promotions and didn't get over. Even ignoring that because I'm being rather flippant there, who did they bring in that looked that good a prospect? I doubt they originally intended to push RVD much but when he got over with the crowds they gave him a pretty decent push really. I've already agreed that they should have done better with DDP. Booker T's nothing special, and they had him attack Austin, Mr. McMahon and feud with The Rock. And they tried to make Booker something other than a rip off Rock, which is what he was before they got him, and made him a bit of a chikenshit heel. They gave him the right push for that too. Do you want him to be who he was in WCW, or do you want him not to come off as a bargain basement Rock? You're also talking about the WWF taking wrestlers who were mainly jobbers in WCW (Lance Storm wasn't, but Lance Storm's pretty boring) and having their top stars put them over as equals. That's some big egos you're asking to put Shannon Moore over there. Plus you haven't got the extra show and you've got masses of your own stars already over with your fanbase, you can't rid of them and you can't just completely get rid of them, and you don't really want to demote them by having them enter an equal footing with Chavo Guerrero Jr.

[fraserbee]

Back in about 1995 when Eurosport used to show NJPW wrestling, I remember watching a Pegasus Kid/Chris Benoit match and distinctly remember Benoit doing his diving headbutt off the top rope to the floor. A friend of mine swears something this stupid would never have happened and that it must have come to me in a dream.

 

Anyway, while I can picture the whole situation now, I can't for the life of me remember who Benoit's opponent was. Does anyone else remember this happening and even better, know if the match in question is on YouTube?

[Magnum Milano]

Back in about 1995 when Eurosport used to show NJPW wrestling, I remember watching a Pegasus Kid/Chris Benoit match and distinctly remember Benoit doing his diving headbutt off the top rope to the floor. A friend of mine swears something this stupid would never have happened and that it must have come to me in a dream.

 

Anyway, while I can picture the whole situation now, I can't for the life of me remember who Benoit's opponent was. Does anyone else remember this happening and even better, know if the match in question is on YouTube?

It definately happened as I remember it myself (and had it on video at one point, but taped over it). Benoit's opponent was Jushin Liger, but I have no idea of the date of the match.

[unfitfinlay]

These were guys who'd worked in other promotions and didn't get over. Even ignoring that because I'm being rather flippant there, who did they bring in that looked that good a prospect? I doubt they originally intended to push RVD much but when he got over with the crowds they gave him a pretty decent push really. I've already agreed that they should have done better with DDP. Booker T's nothing special, and they had him attack Austin, Mr. McMahon and feud with The Rock. And they tried to make Booker something other than a rip off Rock, which is what he was before they got him, and made him a bit of a chikenshit heel. They gave him the right push for that too. Do you want him to be who he was in WCW, or do you want him not to come off as a bargain basement Rock? You're also talking about the WWF taking wrestlers who were mainly jobbers in WCW (Lance Storm wasn't, but Lance Storm's pretty boring) and having their top stars put them over as equals. That's some big egos you're asking to put Shannon Moore over there. Plus you haven't got the extra show and you've got masses of your own stars already over with your fanbase, you can't rid of them and you can't just completely get rid of them, and you don't really want to demote them by having them enter an equal footing with Chavo Guerrero Jr.

 

I really don't want to turn this into "unfitfinlay rebooks decade old storyline" so I'll try and be as brief as possible.

 

The WCW Invasion itself was strong enough that it could've gotten pretty much everybody over as long as they were presented as a threat, which they never were. Instead of being portrayed as a unified WCW (or even WCW/ECW) taking advantage of a divided WWF, the WWF guys immediately got their shit together and united against the Invaders, and pretty much abandoning all the storylines that had been going on previously. Seriously THIS happened THREE DAYS after Shane announced the Invasion. The NWO B team never even got that kind of treatment.

 

As for Booker, my problem was that he was booked with less credibility than Santino Marella is now. Sure, he ripped The Rock off in WCW but building the storyline around Booker calling himself The Book, dubbing the Spinaroonie "The Most Electric Move in Sports Entertainment" and claiming that the Rock had ripped him off was just fucking dumb, and if the World Champion is booked as a comedy character then what does it say about everybody else?

[wandshogun09]

Back in about 1995 when Eurosport used to show NJPW wrestling, I remember watching a Pegasus Kid/Chris Benoit match and distinctly remember Benoit doing his diving headbutt off the top rope to the floor. A friend of mine swears something this stupid would never have happened and that it must have come to me in a dream.

 

Anyway, while I can picture the whole situation now, I can't for the life of me remember who Benoit's opponent was. Does anyone else remember this happening and even better, know if the match in question is on YouTube?

It definately happened as I remember it myself (and had it on video at one point, but taped over it). Benoit's opponent was Jushin Liger, but I have no idea of the date of the match.

 

It was defo Benoit vs Liger, I also had it on tape on a Best of NJPW on Eurosport comp a few years back. Pretty sure it was from 1993. I had a look on Youtube but can't find that particular match.