What if....?

[Carbomb]

36 minutes ago, CDM said:

@Carbomb I have often wondered with investment if the uk is a country that could produce a major promotion. Obviously the US is by far the biggest country for wrestling. But Japan obviously has njpw and a few others. Mexico has a few of its own. Uk produces some great wrestlers and I do think there could be a market for it. I don't mean a promotion the size of wwe obviously. But maybe a big promotion if you know what I mean.

What do you think? 

It's difficult to say. Japan has more than twice the population of the UK, for a start, as does Mexico. 

But I really do think it's a cultural thing. Lucha is a big thing in Mexico because it draws on the colour and vividity of the Aztec and Maya cultures; there's always a carnival feel to it.

Japan has a tradition of martial arts, including sumo, and a culture of "fighting spirit". Plus they've always been a country that thirstily imports other countries' cultures for their people to consume.

Britain did have a relatively vivid wrestling culture, but it had a "gritty" feel to it. Grittiness is something we've always done well, but I can't shake the feeling that that's because there's a depressive element to British culture in general, rather than a joyful one. We make a glorious art of misery, complaining, and failure (except we wouldn't acknowledge the "glorious" bit). I don't know how that translates to rejigging British wrestling to be more popular than the WWF in the 1980s. Hell, our own big burger franchise couldn't survive against all the American imports.

As regards a major promotion, I've no doubt the UK could produce one; we've got the technical expertise, and the UK is still one of the world's richest countries. But it doesn't seem like the will is there. For a long time, no-one would touch British wrestling with a barge pole, because of the Crabtrees, and then, later, the cavalcade of shitarses who destroyed any good will any potential producers or investors might have had.

There was a point a few years ago, when Progress and ICW seemed like they might finally get there, and BritWres was the best it had been in decades, but then WWE just had to tighten their stranglehold, and bought them out. NXT UK killed off the resurgence, and with all the economic shit going on, it doesn't look like we're going to see another any time soon. 

Edited February 26, 2025 by Carbomb
Ferenc Puskas

[simonworden]

I feel like British wrestling was doomed to end in the 80's really. Times were changing and the glamor of America was being broadcast over even more than ever. Even if they had the muscular guys suddenly ready to go, the production values, venues and overall presentation style was so bland to a younger audience compared to what they could see from the USA. Pre WWF expansion, it could be argued it didn't look particularly worse than if someone was old WWWF, Memphis or NWA footage.

The BBC didn't want it, ITV didn't want it and there just wouldn't be an audience for it on SKY/ Cable as a lot of that was promoted around having the movies and American shows. You've also got the rise of Gladiators and Power Rangers providing plenty of hero based action on TV around this time and they had toys, lots of toys. 

British wrestling was a huge casualty of staying the same in a changing entertainment market. It thrived in a country with only 2 or 3 TV channels limited viewing choice but as more became available there was more to watch including the glitzy American wrestling and people lost interest. Through the 90's and 2000s the big TV companies didn't need to get behind a local promotion either as there were tapes to be bought and shown from the States if they really wanted to but they had so much content to fill slots that would draw better whether it were the soaps, movies, sports or even a rerun of Eurotrash. 

That meant that only B or C level channels would be willing to put on a show with a quarter of the production values at best compared to American wrestling and of course nobody could afford to promote it so nobody found it.

The new boom was in part thanks to modern tech from what I can see, sharing what a good night out it is and creating a modern culture around it. Had the FWA had social media like the last decade they could have potentially done this as well.

Of course that all ignores that whenever anyone with some power did think to get behind it, they were usually scared away by the shitarses and egos the encountered. 

[Tommy!]

10 hours ago, CDM said:

If I remember he won the title against foley then lost it to big show in a triple threat match.

Lost it to Vince in the middle too. 

 

10 hours ago, CDM said:

Interesting thing about triple h is a lot of people talk about being selfish. Which I do agree has been true at times. But he took a loss to Batista, cena and roman reigns at wrestlemania. Cena was a tap out loss. I also think he tapped out to benoit in the triple threat match at wrestlemania 20 and he didn't win the triple threat with cena and Orton at wrestlemania 24, although I think cena took the pin. I'm pretty certain he didn't have to take all those losses 

It's off topic I know, but he was such a cunt at times 99 to that Batista run that's what people remember first I guess.

He was always happy to loose to certain people he respected or knew weren't a threat, Benoit being one example, but for all you mention at the front of lots of peoples minds is that booker run, those Steiner matches, that 02 kane fued and shitting on Orton.

Now that Orton one, getting back on topic, is odd because if he hadn't snuffed out him as a tip top face prospect in short order would you have got the Batista assent that followed?

Edited February 26, 2025 by Tommy!

[air_raid]

12 hours ago, CDM said:

I think retiring foley then winning the main event at wrestlemania 2000 established him as the top heel in the company.

He was top heel in the company as soon as The Undertaker did his groin ; there was fucking nobody else. Rock had been turned babyface ahead of the Corporate Ministry bullshit and Austin didn't want to work with Jarrett or Billy Gunn. Literally nobody else, short of relying on Big Show. Who was a heel at the time, about to have a phantom face turn by fall, and heel again by January.

Edited February 26, 2025 by air_raid
WELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[Carbomb]

2 hours ago, Tommy! said:

Now that Orton one, getting back on topic, is odd because if he hadn't snuffed out him as a tip top face prospect in short order would you have got the Batista assent that followed?

The problem with Orton at the time was that he just wasn't good enough yet, and it showed. The only reason they raised him to the title was because Brock had just left acrimoniously, and they wanted to erase his record as youngest-ever World champ. If they hadn't been in such a rush, Orton would most likely have got the Batista slow burn, I'd bet.

[The Reverend]

16 hours ago, Just Some Guy said:

Mine is a bit way out as it is totally hypothetical.

World of sport gets canned in 1985.

IIRC at this point the subsequent wrestling program is split 50/50 between Joint Promotions and All-Star with the occasional WWF week.

Now this was the first time me and anyone at school had seen American Wrestling and it was a world away from the old men in swimming trunks rolling around in town halls.

So, what if All-Star (because it ain't going to be JP) throw out the Mounteven rules, abolish weight classes,, have more gimmicky wrestlers and use American rules for the remainder of the time wrestling was on telly (until 1988).

Do All-Star get the slot on their own because of a more modern presentation? Does British wrestling last longer than 1988? Do we end up with a nationwide British promotion.

Or does everything get swept away by WWF anyway.

As another post said, it was pretty much doomed to be off the air in the 80's. One of the big problems wasn't the in-ring product, but the cultures too. There's a tendency to look at the 80's through rose-tinted glasses in this country. When you think of the mid-80's in the USA, the glamour, vibrancy and consumer lifestyle was definitely in place - people think the UK was the same, but we really weren't. Billy Elliot and This is England summed up the UK perfectly in that era, drab and still very much stuck in the late 70's.  Even if a promotion had tried to move more towards the American style, our severe lack of venues would've made it seem weak. The Rosemont Horizon wasn't anything flash, but it still looked like a huge palace compared to the Maidstone Cattle Market. 

On a side note, it was the whole USA thing that partly drew me into wrestling I think as an impressionable 10 year old - this was a country of massive cars, massive fast food outlets, multiple TV channels (when we only had 4), cool consumer lifestyle choices in shopping and fashions (what did we have C&A and Fosters?). It was a world away from what the UK was at the time. Later on I've been able to visit the USA countless times, I still love it, but it wasn't quite the gleaming star I went misty-eyed over in my childhood.  

 

 

[The Reverend]

12 hours ago, Carbomb said:

As regards a major promotion, I've no doubt the UK could produce one; we've got the technical expertise, and the UK is still one of the world's richest countries. But it doesn't seem like the will is there. 

We just need a few wristbands - that'll do it. 

[TheScarlettChad]

52 minutes ago, Carbomb said:

The problem with Orton at the time was that he just wasn't good enough yet, and it showed. The only reason they raised him to the title was because Brock had just left acrimoniously, and they wanted to erase his record as youngest-ever World champ. If they hadn't been in such a rush, Orton would most likely have got the Batista slow burn, I'd bet.

Would the slow burn have worked with Orton like it did Big Dave?

[Carbomb]

If I really think about it, it feels like the only thing that might have helped is if wrestling had, like McMahon did with the WWF and MTV, somehow built an association with distinctively British pop culture - Vivienne Westwood, New Wave, Culture Club and Boy George in particular, yuppies, 80s punks, protests and strikes, 80s SKA and reggae, The Young Ones, etc.

But the problem there is that a lot of what happened culturally in the 80s was hinged around the rejection and destruction of working-class culture, which wrestling in its "smoke-filled halls" was firmly part of, and visibly so because of terrestrial TV's reach to such a large portion of the population. To do what McMahon did, it required an almost-surgical removal from one and attachment to the other, and I don't think that would've been possible when the people you would need to reach to do it would still be well aware of what wrestling was in this country, embodied in the ridiculous Big Daddy and associated acts. I don't think any of the cultural gatekeepers at the time in music, TV, film, fashion, etc. would have wanted anything to do with wrestling, no matter how it was portrayed. 

It must have been easier for McMahon to accomplish simply because it probably wasn't such a jump from one to the other in the US. And a big part of 80s US pop culture was that 1950s-style embrace of working-class culture anyway, with diners, jukeboxes, Billy Joel singing about dating above his station, etc.

Another thing comes to mind: geography. The US is a huge area. There was space for the WWF, the NWA/wCw, the AWA, WCCW, CWA, etc. to slug it out. The UK "territory" is tiny, and the promoters definitely were linked with organised crime; any "new style" promoter even remotely trying to bring a new product to the market would've most likely been hounded out by All Star and Dale Martin.

14 minutes ago, TheScarlettChad said:

Would the slow burn have worked with Orton like it did Big Dave?

If we're being frank, I think that was the only way to do it. They almost ruined Orton with how they pushed him initially. They essentially had to "rehab" him after Cena and Batista's parallel ascensions.

Edited February 26, 2025 by Carbomb
Tony Cascarino

[The Reverend]

1 hour ago, Carbomb said:

If I really think about it, it feels like the only thing that might have helped is if wrestling had, like McMahon did with the WWF and MTV, somehow built an association with distinctively British pop culture - Vivienne Westwood, New Wave, Culture Club and Boy George in particular, yuppies, 80s punks, protests and strikes, 80s SKA and reggae, The Young Ones, etc.

But the problem there is that a lot of what happened culturally in the 80s was hinged around the rejection and destruction of working-class culture, which wrestling in its "smoke-filled halls" was firmly part of, and visibly so because of terrestrial TV's reach to such a large portion of the population. To do what McMahon did, it required an almost-surgical removal from one and attachment to the other, and I don't think that would've been possible when the people you would need to reach to do it would still be well aware of what wrestling was in this country, embodied in the ridiculous Big Daddy and associated acts. I don't think any of the cultural gatekeepers at the time in music, TV, film, fashion, etc. would have wanted anything to do with wrestling, no matter how it was portrayed. 

It must have been easier for McMahon to accomplish simply because it probably wasn't such a jump from one to the other in the US. And a big part of 80s US pop culture was that 1950s-style embrace of working-class culture anyway, with diners, jukeboxes, Billy Joel singing about dating above his station, etc.

 

You're right, it's what McMahon was able to do in the US by getting in with MTV and SNL, The A-Team etc. There's a clip on, I think, the True Story of Wrestlemania documentary that has a piece from MTV around 85 with these yuppie type art types pontificating about how it's all modern age gladiators etc. 

I think the UK did try a couple of mainstream crossovers, IIRC there was a 1970's episode of Coronation Street, which featured t'wrestling. And that's why you're so right, everything over here was presented as a working class spectacle. Of course it wasn't helped by us being in a financial rut in the mid-80's, making things even more gloomy. The only way it could've worked at that time was to latch onto that mid-80's Wham style where pop went a bit more fun and technicolour. George Michael and Hulk Hogan I could've seen as a coolk coupling. George and Mick McManus not so much.  

It still surprises me that after 82, no-one did an Argentinian heel gimmick in this country. Would've stormed the box-office after the Falklands I'd have thought. 

[Carbomb]

34 minutes ago, The Reverend said:

It still surprises me that after 82, no-one did an Argentinian heel gimmick in this country. Would've stormed the box-office after the Falklands I'd have thought. 

He wouldn't have left the hall alive. When you consider what some of those old ladies were packing in their handbags, it would've been bloody murder. Also, war gimmicks are a bit too close to the knuckle, I think. I'd be willing to bet the only reason McMahon was able to do the Col. Mustafa gimmick was because the US didn't suffer the same proportional number of casualties in the Gulf War that the UK did in the Falklands. In the UK in 1982, there was a good chance that most working-class people knew someone who'd been killed or maimed in the Falklands (the UK sustained over a thousand casualties); not so much the US, who lost (according to Wiki) 148 total in Iraq.

Edited February 26, 2025 by Carbomb
Ray Houghton

[air_raid]

2 hours ago, Carbomb said:

They almost ruined Orton with how they pushed him initially. 

Can we remind ourselves of the hat trick of calamities? When they had Evolution turn on Orton with him not seeing it coming, they made him look stupid. When they had him spit in Hunter's face then run off into the crowd, they made him look like a coward. When they had him lose his title in his first big defence, they made him look like a loser.

Stupid, cowardly loser is not a great look for your new babyface.

Edited February 26, 2025 by air_raid
The voices in your head were Vince and Bruce all along.

[Cocky_Pete]

I really love stuff like this!

I was a big fan of Ron Gamble's Just S’pose articles on 411mania back in the day:

https://411mania.com/wrestling/just-spose-6-03-07/

Does anybody know of any similar articles or websites that does alternative wrestling history?

Edited March 3, 2025 by Cocky_Pete

[Johnnyreggae]

What if Owen Hart had joined bret in wcw?

[SuperBacon]

45 minutes ago, Johnnyreggae said:

What if Owen Hart had joined bret in wcw?

At the same time as Bret? Phwoar, think about all the cruiserweights he could've faced and had crackers with.