David Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 23 minutes ago, METAL ON METAL said: Depends on the club and how authoritative the manager is. A couple of years ago Phil Parkinson banished Aiden McGeady (one of our best players at that time) to train with the U18’s for 6 months for getting spotted eating a McDonalds with Chris Maguire. Doesn’t surprise me that Moyes is sackless, never had an ounce of leadership when he was up here. And how did that work out for Parkinson? The "authoritative" approach? It's probably not the best thing for squad harmony for a football manager to make those kinds of decisions unilaterally. Like it or not, the managers job is to keep the squad onside and all pulling in the same direction. That's what he's paid to do. He's not paid to be the moral police when it comes to incidents like the one Zouma was involved in. What should have happened is the owners decide the player has to be suspended. That way Moyes can carry out their instructions without being seen as the bad guy. As an aside, let's not pretend that Moyes record up in Sunderland is any real reflection of his abilities as a manager. He's taken West Ham into the top four of the premiership while Sunderland, a complete basketcase of a club in recent years, were losing 2-1 away to fucking Cheltenham. Just now, Factotum said: The club should have suspended him immediately pending the investigation. Apparently they left it up to Moyes to decide to pick him or not. According to Talksport they feel vindicated in what they did. Basically fuck everyone involved in it. The club should have suspended him, that's key. The decision to play him or not should have been made by those responsible for running the club, not the football manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
METAL ON METAL Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, David said: And how did that work out for Parkinson? The "authoritative" approach? It's probably not the best thing for squad harmony for a football manager to make those kinds of decisions unilaterally. Like it or not, the managers job is to keep the squad onside and all pulling in the same direction. That's what he's paid to do. He's not paid to be the moral police when it comes to incidents like the one Zouma was involved in. What should have happened is the owners decide the player has to be suspended. That way Moyes can carry out their instructions without being seen as the bad guy. As an aside, let's not pretend that Moyes record up in Sunderland is any real reflection of his abilities as a manager. He's taken West Ham into the top four of the premiership while Sunderland, a complete basketcase of a club in recent years, were losing 2-1 away to fucking Cheltenham. It doesn’t matter what happened with Parkinson, he still made the choice he thought was right and showed that he would discipline anyone if they did anything wrong, even star players. Moyes hasn’t done that, so what happens now when another West Ham player in the future gets suspended or fined? They will query why the same thing didn’t happen to Zouma and you’ve got potential dressing room mutiny on your hands over something that could’ve been avoided first hand. Zouma was the one who has caused all this but Moyes has now indicted himself by his own choices and words. For what it’s worth, we’re hardly the only club Moyes failed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Factotum Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 31 minutes ago, David said: The decision to play him or not should have been made by those responsible for running the club, not the football manager. Yes agreed. But you would have to be absolutely tone deaf as a person let alone a manager to have picked him last night. That's a moral stain on the man. Players are dropped all the time for disciplinary problems, this is an horrendous incident that everyone knows about. He should not have played yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 38 minutes ago, METAL ON METAL said: It doesn’t matter what happened with Parkinson, he still made the choice he thought was right and showed that he would discipline anyone if they did anything wrong, even star players. Well, it does matter what happened with Parkinson. He may have believed the choice he made was right, but was it really? What insight does the results of his actions show? Did he suspend McGeady for eating a McDonalds and then see the squad pull closer together and go on to achieve success? Or did he get sacked just over a year into a two and a half year contract? While the Big Mac-scoffing McGeady is still at the club? 38 minutes ago, METAL ON METAL said: Moyes hasn’t done that, so what happens now when another West Ham player in the future gets suspended or fined? They will query why the same thing didn’t happen to Zouma and you’ve got potential dressing room mutiny on your hands over something that could’ve been avoided first hand. No, the only way any player could call into question Moyes actions would be if he personally decided to drop a player who had not been disciplined by those who run the club. Any player in future who does something serious enough to be suspended will have their punishment handed down by the powers-that-be. That's the difference here. It's actually the opposite of what you're claiming. If Moyes had taken it upon himself to drop Zouma then he'd have been opening himself up to potential problems down the line. Where would the line be that the manager makes the personal decision to drop a player? By leaving disciplinary matters to the club hierarchy he's making sure that he can't be accused of favouritism, thus maintaining dressing room harmony and the status quo when it comes to the relationship between the playing squad and the management team. In fact, Moyes approach is probably something that Parkinson could have considered. He may have gotten a little longer out of that contract he had with Sunderland. 38 minutes ago, METAL ON METAL said: Zouma was the one who has caused all this but Moyes has now indicted himself by his own choices and words. Zouma will be dealt with by the club. He'll likely face a sizeable fine and possibly a suspension. Moyes may have created a bit of a stir by playing him as far as some fans and the media are concerned, but I guarantee you that his squad of players opinion of him today will have risen. Zouma will know he owes Moyes a great deal of gratitude for not throwing him under the bus. He's shown that he'll continue to back his players to the hilt. That kind of currency will serve Moyes a lot better than the respect of some moaning journos and opposing fans. And bear in mind here that I 100% believe Zouma should be suspended for a few games, fined, and made to donate to animal charities or something. I just believe it's something that should be mandated by the people who run the club, and not left on the shoulders of the football manager. Edited February 9, 2022 by David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 16 minutes ago, David said: And bear in mind here that I 100% believe Zouma should be suspended for a few games, fined, and made to donate to animal charities or something. I just believe it's something that should be mandated by the people who run the club, and not left on the shoulders of the football manager. You just know that Moyes would’ve come under fire had he not done his job and used the best players available to him. If he dropped Zouma (without damaging him)and they dropped points and come the end of season, West Ham miss out on Europe by 3 points. Moyes would be blamed for the entirely hypothetical situation. But you get my meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrodyGraham Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: You just know that Moyes would’ve come under fire had he not done his job and used the best players available to him. If he dropped Zouma (without damaging him)and they dropped points and come the end of season, West Ham miss out on Europe by 3 points. Moyes would be blamed for the entirely hypothetical situation. But you get my meaning. The people demand maximum damage to Kurt Zouma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: You just know that Moyes would’ve come under fire had he not done his job and used the best players available to him. If he dropped Zouma (without damaging him)and they dropped points and come the end of season, West Ham miss out on Europe by 3 points. Moyes would be blamed for the entirely hypothetical situation. But you get my meaning. The whole thing typifies the two scrotes that own that club, doesn't it? They deliberately stood back knowing full well that Moyes would face the brunt of it. It should have been on them to immediately make that decision and inform Moyes that Zouma wouldn't be available for the next few games and to plan his teams accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 Fucking hell. That’s quite the fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said: Fucking hell. That’s quite the fine. Let's hope the money is going to a good cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperBacon Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 7 minutes ago, David said: Let's hope the money is going to a good cause. Sullivan will probably spend it on those stupid fucking hats he wears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted February 9, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2022 22 minutes ago, SuperBacon said: Sullivan will probably spend it on those stupid fucking hats he wears. As per the official statement; “The player has immediately accepted the fine, which will be donated to animal welfare charities. “West Ham United would like to reiterate our condemnation of Kurt’s actions and make it clear that the matter continues to be handled with the utmost seriousness. “However, we believe it is now important to allow the RSPCA to conduct their investigation in a fair and thorough manner, and will be making no further comment at this stage.” I had also seen he would not be available for selection for the next game, but that was not in the official statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
METAL ON METAL Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 3 hours ago, David said: Well, it does matter what happened with Parkinson. He may have believed the choice he made was right, but was it really? What insight does the results of his actions show? Did he suspend McGeady for eating a McDonalds and then see the squad pull closer together and go on to achieve success? Or did he get sacked just over a year into a two and a half year contract? While the Big Mac-scoffing McGeady is still at the club? No, the only way any player could call into question Moyes actions would be if he personally decided to drop a player who had not been disciplined by those who run the club. Any player in future who does something serious enough to be suspended will have their punishment handed down by the powers-that-be. That's the difference here. It's actually the opposite of what you're claiming. If Moyes had taken it upon himself to drop Zouma then he'd have been opening himself up to potential problems down the line. Where would the line be that the manager makes the personal decision to drop a player? By leaving disciplinary matters to the club hierarchy he's making sure that he can't be accused of favouritism, thus maintaining dressing room harmony and the status quo when it comes to the relationship between the playing squad and the management team. In fact, Moyes approach is probably something that Parkinson could have considered. He may have gotten a little longer out of that contract he had with Sunderland. Zouma will be dealt with by the club. He'll likely face a sizeable fine and possibly a suspension. Moyes may have created a bit of a stir by playing him as far as some fans and the media are concerned, but I guarantee you that his squad of players opinion of him today will have risen. Zouma will know he owes Moyes a great deal of gratitude for not throwing him under the bus. He's shown that he'll continue to back his players to the hilt. That kind of currency will serve Moyes a lot better than the respect of some moaning journos and opposing fans. And bear in mind here that I 100% believe Zouma should be suspended for a few games, fined, and made to donate to animal charities or something. I just believe it's something that should be mandated by the people who run the club, and not left on the shoulders of the football manager. Parkinson was sacked because he played dreadful football and was tactically inept, so nothing to do with this situation that you’re constantly trying to mate together. Despite McGeady being one of our best players at the time, the large majority of fans at the time weren’t in uproar about him being disciplined or when he got loaned out as it showed consequences for his actions - he’s a notorious bad egg in the squad and that culture is still alive at the club, hence our self-destructive tendencies alive and well. It’s a failure of Gold & Sullivan too for not being proactive with it, but their cuntishness doesn’t absolve Moyes of any responsibility or power in the matter. Literally all they had to do was not select him for that game citing a pending bullshit investigation and they could’ve brought him back by the next game with so much less bad publicity. Trust me, Sunderland fans know all about mishandled cases, we fucking played Adam Johnson while he was awaiting his court date and we rightfully still get shit about it to this day. You’re talking absolute rubbish and zero understanding of HR by saying they could suspend him in the future instead. Tell me David, if you did what he did or anything to put your employer in a bad light, would your employer let you keep coming to work for a week before then investigating it? No, they would suspend you immediately pending an investigation as to not compromise proceedings. Moyes has gained more respect from players for allowing abhorrent animal abuse to go unpunished? Christ, Dave, you’re not even fucking trying to hid your wind up anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Houchen Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 38 minutes ago, METAL ON METAL said: Tell me David, if you did what he did or anything to put your employer in a bad light, would your employer let you keep coming to work for a week before then investigating it? No, they would suspend you immediately pending an investigation as to not compromise proceedings. Union hat on. Not necessarily because it would have to matter that any investigation could be prejudiced by you remaining on site at your employers. There are countless instances (including ones I’ve represented people in) where police have turned up at work to question an employee over stuff like incidents involving drunken nights out and ensuing fights. Their behaviour reflected badly on the company as it led to plod turning up but I advised them not to talk about it with the company HR as it was an ongoing police investigation and they couldn’t legally discuss an ongoing investigation. If the company wanted to suspend them pending the police investigation, they would have to do so on full pay for the duration of the investigation which could be months. So they did nothing because they couldn’t do anything about it. Now, compare this to fights that happened at works do’s or supervisors using their company mobile to phone up their ex who also works there in the early hours and drunkenly slag them off. They’re sackable offences (and in these particular cases the people did indeed get sacked) BECAUSE they’re representing the company and using company property, so it does fall under the company jurisdiction. We all know who Zouma works for, but he did what he did in his own gaff. Much like someone smoking a spliff at home wouldn’t be suspended pending an investigation. Essentially it isn’t a work matter. It’s down to the employer what they want to do. I mean one guy I represented at a firm I worked for told the company voluntarily that he got nicked for drunk driving and it wasn’t for the first time. They thanked his honesty by keeping his job open for him while he did ten months. But no investigation was carried out because it was a police matter. Bringing the company into disrepute as a reason to get rid doesn’t work so well for the wealthy, as they can afford to lawyer up. Your average racist shouting slurs that goes viral? Not so much. Especially if they have their place of work in their bio, that why they usually walk before they’re pushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, METAL ON METAL said: Parkinson was sacked because he played dreadful football and was tactically inept, so nothing to do with this situation that you’re constantly trying to mate together. If Parkinson has nothing to do with this situation why did you mention him? You held him up as an example of someone who took the opposite approach to Moyes, so I assumed that by doing so you figured he'd been a success? He wasn't a success. He failed. His approach, which included his approach to how he treated his squad, failed. He was a terrible example. 1 hour ago, METAL ON METAL said: It’s a failure of Gold & Sullivan too for not being proactive with it, but their cuntishness doesn’t absolve Moyes of any responsibility or power in the matter. Literally all they had to do was not select him for that game citing a pending bullshit investigation and they could’ve brought him back by the next game with so much less bad publicity. I already addressed that point. If Moyes had taken it upon himself to drop the player then he'd have been opening himself up to potential problems down the line, because he wouldn't have been following club protocol, he'd have been making a choice based on personal preference and opinion, and that's a slippery slope to go down. As with all football clubs, there will be disciplinary protocols that fall under the remit of the manager, such as when a player shows up late to training, or is out of line in and around the training ground etc. More serious issues, such as the situation facing Zouma, will be dealt with higher up the food chain. And there's a reason for that. The truth is, this was a case where Sullivan and Gold threw their manager under the bus so they wouldn't need to deal with the situation before a big game. They put Moyes in a shitty position, and I personally think he made the right call. It was the club hierarchy who fucked it up. 1 hour ago, METAL ON METAL said: Trust me, Sunderland fans know all about mishandled cases, we fucking played Adam Johnson while he was awaiting his court date and we rightfully still get shit about it to this day. Hold up, are you comparing a player who kicked his cat to a player who was done with having sex with an underage girl? There's no real similarities between both cases. I'm not trying to downplay animal cruelty, but there really is no comparison here. Probably best we just move along from this one! 1 hour ago, METAL ON METAL said: You’re talking absolute rubbish and zero understanding of HR by saying they could suspend him in the future instead. What? 1 hour ago, METAL ON METAL said: Tell me David, if you did what he did or anything to put your employer in a bad light, would your employer let you keep coming to work for a week before then investigating it? No, they would suspend you immediately pending an investigation as to not compromise proceedings. Yes, but it wouldn't be on my team leader to suspend me, would it? If actual upper management hadn't sent down word that I had to be sent home and placed on suspension I wouldn't expect the floor manager or team leader to take that decision upon themselves, regardless of their personal view on the matter. Which is my point. It's on the hierarchy of the club to suspend the player, Moyes' job is to select the best football team for the game from the squad of players he has available. It's on Sullivan and Gold to make Zouma unavailable. For Moyes to go into business for himself on the matter could jeopardise his future relationship with not just the player in question, who he will have to work with and rely upon in future, but also the entire squad as a whole. Kind of like what happens to managers like Roy Keane and your lad at Sunderland. 1 hour ago, METAL ON METAL said: Moyes has gained more respect from players for allowing abhorrent animal abuse to go unpunished? Christ, Dave, you’re not even fucking trying to hid your wind up anymore. Once again, I guarantee you that his squad of players opinion of him today will have risen. No player wants to work with a manager who is quick to disown them and who will take it upon themselves to punish them and drop them from the team when it's a matter that should be dealt with by upper management. You should know that from having seen how things went for Phil Parkinson. It may not sit well with the wider footballing world, but what Moyes has done is show his players that he will back them as much as he possibly can, and that he has their backs. Zouma in particular will know he owes Moyes a great deal of gratitude for not throwing him under the bus. He's shown that he'll continue to back his players to the hilt. If you can't see why that would come across well to the West Ham squad then I don't know what to tell you. There's a reason why Moyes has taken a squad of players to 4th in the table who most likely shouldn't be anywhere near such a position. Despite your obvious dislike of him, he knows what he's doing. Edit: Now, if you want to continue the discussion I'll need to charge you per word for my wisdom! Edited February 9, 2022 by David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paid Members Hannibal Scorch Posted February 9, 2022 Paid Members Share Posted February 9, 2022 Zouma has been dropped by Adidas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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