VeganMania

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

Which one is you Max?

[UK Kat Von D]

34 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

Which one is you Max?

The one who doesn’t put spines in baps.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth?CMP=fb_gu

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

There's no point anymore posting facts and figures is there. You've already established the precedent of not believing anything you disagree with in any way, so have the other side so don't feel you are the only one. You are going to choose the facts you want, the other side are going to choose the facts they want, both sides are going to end up poisoned by the same air in the end. 

 

[Keith Houchen]

45 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

The one who doesn’t put spines in baps.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth?CMP=fb_gu

The text in the headline omits one word from the actual quote.  “A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use.

But it isn't, choosing not to have children is.  It'll still do the world of good, mind.

I'm sorry if it feels like a pile on, I think you're fighting the good fight.  You said to Rey "I read one article. I said I wasn’t going to form an opinion until I’ve researched it properly.", so how do you know the posted article is "Biased as fuck"?  Does the publication have a history with these stories, a la The Mail and foreigners?

Again, apologies if it feels like an attack, you're one of the good guys.

[UK Kat Von D]

25 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

There's no point anymore posting facts and figures is there. You've already established the precedent of not believing anything you disagree with in any way, so have the other side so don't feel you are the only one. You are going to choose the facts you want, the other side are going to choose the facts they want, both sides are going to end up poisoned by the same air in the end. 

 

I feel like I’ve established the precedent of not believing false data. Over and over again I had to explain to Rey that the things he was saying were factually wrong. There is literally no proof even in his own “evidence” that tofu is just as bad as a beef burger. None at all. It isn’t even a debate. He couldn’t even tell the difference between a pie chart saying total and a pie chart saying economic sector. 

When talking with people like him I never expect to change his opinion, but on open forums it could sway the opinion of a third party. It’s like arguing with gammon on Facebook, you can’t change their mind but there are plenty of undecided people who could read the back and forth. 

2 minutes ago, Keith Houchen said:

I'm sorry if it feels like a pile on, I think you're fighting the good fight.  You said to Rey "I read one article. I said I wasn’t going to form an opinion until I’ve researched it properly.", so how do you know the posted article is "Biased as fuck"?  

The way the whole article just worded in a way to intentionally lead the reader in a specific direction.

”Workers maneuvering forklifts stack the boxes on the trucks in the dead of night, when the containers' residents are all home. They drape nets over the boxes to catch any curious scouts and begin the journey. Sometimes the trucks crash, spilling boxes onto the highway and unleashing living swarms that writhe with anger and confusion, but most of the travelers complete the journey safely.”

To me, that isn’t an unbiased scientific article. Even if it comes from somewhere called Scientific America. It uses the exact same language a pro-vegan writer will use, except this time to attack Vegans. I’ll read several things from both sides before settling on an position and then use the articles which I felt carried a more accurate representation. 

[Rey_Piste]

Any discussion that gets people questioning where their food comes from is good and I don't mean which supermarket they shop at. All commercial agriculture is damaging the planet in one way or another and arable farming is intrinsically linked to livestock production. The expression think locally help globally really hits the nail on the head. The thing is that we live in a part of the globe where we can make choices about our diets, that many poorer countries can't. So we should do our best to buy the food that doesn't do as much harm to the environment.

[Keith Houchen]

Yeah, that's a bit "Tea's ready" from At Home With The Benoits, isn't it?

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

It's what you feel you've done isn't it Max. You've no evidence to back your feeling up other than your own opinion. You claim false data for everything you don't agree with. Everyone here can see you pick the bits you agree with and try and ignore those you don't. We all do it, you are just an extreme case. You titled the thread VeganMania and it's accurate. You are a Vegan Maniac, you have a mania for veganism. Like all people like yourself your heart is 100% in the right place, a lot of what you say makes sense, but ultimately the sensible parts of your message will be drowned out by the manic fanaticism that you display. Its a real shame because a lot of what you say is on the money. 

[UK Kat Von D]

1 minute ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

It's what you feel you've done isn't it Max. You've no evidence to back your feeling up other than your own opinion. You claim false data for everything you don't agree with. Everyone here can see you pick the bits you agree with and try and ignore those you don't. We all do it, you are just an extreme case. You titled the thread VeganMania and it's accurate. You are a Vegan Maniac, you have a mania for veganism. Like all people like yourself your heart is 100% in the right place, a lot of what you say makes sense, but ultimately the sensible parts of your message will be drowned out by the manic fanaticism that you display. Its a real shame because a lot of what you say is on the money. 

I’m constantly using evidence to back up what I’m saying. I claim false data when I have better data which disproves it. I’m not sure if you are paying attention to my posts.

Already posted this, but I’ll post it again.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth?CMP=fb_gu

“A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use,” said Joseph Poore, at the University of Oxford, UK, who led the research.”

Then the articles goes on to say:

Beef results in up to 105kg of greenhouse gases per 100g of meat, while tofu produces less than 3.5kg

Other key points include:

”The research also found grass-fed beef, thought to be relatively low impact, was still responsible for much higher impacts than plant-based food. “Converting grass into [meat] is like converting coal to energy. It comes with an immense cost in emissions,” Poore said.”

I called it VeganMania because it’s like WrestleMania, not because I’m a Maniac.

Seriously this whole thing is like when Trump supporters start saying “but Hillary would of been worse.” 

[Keith Houchen]

6 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

I’m constantly using evidence to back up what I’m saying.

Apart from when you can't, then say that people are focussing on one sentence to dismiss everything you are saying, which is exactly what you're doing with Rey.

And I notice that you've reposted that article and included the actual quote that uses the word "Probably" this time.  But it still isn't the biggest way to reduce impact.  

[Rey_Piste]

50 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

I feel like I’ve established the precedent of not believing false data. Over and over again I had to explain to Rey that the things he was saying were factually wrong. There is literally no proof even in his own “evidence” that tofu is just as bad as a beef burger. None at all. It isn’t even a debate. He couldn’t even tell the difference between a pie chart saying total and a pie chart saying economic sector. 

When talking with people like him I never expect to change his opinion, but on open forums it could sway the opinion of a third party. It’s like arguing with gammon on Facebook, you can’t change their mind but there are plenty of undecided people who could read the back and forth. 

You do realise that both of the charts have same data, just worded differently. Except the chart I posted was a more up to date 2017 EPA statistics compared to the 2012 stats in yours.

I will link you again with the article on why soy is bad for your health and the environment again. https://www.smallfootprintfamily.com/why-soy-is-bad-for-you-and-the-planet 

Many fake meats are made from soy, including Tofu. As for that Gruniad article Keith has already mentioned that it was biased. 

I am not trying to physically shove a bacon sarnie in your gob or stop you from being vegan. I am trying to educate you about the damage that ALL commercial farming does. Many of the charts and articles purposely don't mention grain production, because it would skew their own biased opinions.

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

5 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

probably

The one word you keep ignoring, along with the people who keep telling you that not having children is the biggest single thing you can do to lessen the impact you have on the planet. You ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrative. 

 

9 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

I’m not sure if you are paying attention to my posts.

One thing guaranteed to put people off reading what you say is patronising the reader. You do it constantly. Your holier than thou attitude is the biggest thing that hinders your message. 

 

12 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

I called it VeganMania because it’s like WrestleMania, not because I’m a Maniac

What you call it doesn't matter. As you and others have shown in this thread anyone can define the argument in anyway they want to support their own view. 

 

16 minutes ago, UK Kat Von D said:

Seriously this whole thing is like when Trump supporters start saying “but Hillary would of been worse.” 

Trump supporters choose the facts they want to believe. Both sides in this argument are doing a fair portion of that. 

[Keith Houchen]

7 minutes ago, Lion_of_the_Midlands said:

Trump supporters choose the facts they want to believe. Both sides in this argument are doing a fair portion of that. 

Are they?  To be honest, I'm not even sure what the argument is!  I think all involved are in total agreement that mass production of meat causes more harm to the environment than a plant based diet does.  And that's before we even look at the morality of eating meat.  I think the debate was initially centred around if we knew how our meat was reared and slaughtered, we'd stop eating it.  Which most of us wouldn't.  Then it switched to environmental implications, is that about it?

[Accident Prone]

To be fair, this thread snowballed the second "I believe the whole world will be vegan by 2030" was posted without a moments hesitation. If it weren't for that, and the insinuation that an entire industry can crumble without any massive negative effects to the working classes, then this thread would be coming along nicely with photos of food and recipe suggestions. 

[Lion_of_the_Midlands]

I think it switches to whatever either side wants to argue about to try and win the argument.