UFC 223 is McFucked

[wandshogun09]

I won't try to defend most of Conor's dickish comments but surely the 'boy' thing could've just been a poor choice of words and not meant as racist. The 'dance for me' thing is the same thing he said to Nate Diaz at their press conference. We can't know for sure, obviously, but I don't think he was backstage before that Mayweather presser thinking 'I know what I'll do, I'll call him 'boy' to create some racial tension'. I think he's probably just a bit thick and chose his words badly in that example. But because he's said stuff like the 'Nazi' comment before that, I can see why people jumped on it and he's only got himself to blame for that. 

[David]

4 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

In fairness, it really wasn't though, David. In fact, it became a big news story in the lead up to the match, despite a lot of people involved saying Conor wasn't using it in a racial way - rather it was a clumsy bit of language. We discussed it to death on here at the time too.

If you choose not to believe them, then that's nowt to do with me.

Jim Norton and Bob Kelly being two (there were a few others, but I can't remember right now). They were in genuine awe of the material. 

Conor's racist though, eh?

 

1 minute ago, wandshogun09 said:

I won't try to defend most of Conor's dickish comments but surely the 'boy' thing could've just been a poor choice of words and not meant as racist. The 'dance for me' thing is the same thing he said to Nate Diaz at their press conference. We can't know for sure, obviously, but I don't think he was backstage before that Mayweather presser thinking 'I know what I'll do, I'll call him 'boy' to create some racial tension'. I think he's probably just a bit thick and chose his words badly in that example. But because he's said stuff like the 'Nazi' comment before that, I can see why people jumped on it and he's only got himself to blame for that. 

Come on now lads, the both of you are smarter than that.

You honestly believe that someone like Conor doesn't know that calling a black fella "boy" and telling him to dance for you isn't racist? 

[ColinBollocks]

Maybe he doesn't think it is, though. As wand said, he's called white fighters "boy" and told them to dance before.

You also must remember in those situations you're forced to think on your feet too. Look how many fighters are shite at it, which points to how hard it is to come up with shite to say. If Conor's natural go to is to demean another man (black or white) by calling them "boy" then his brain probably quickly fires there.

Do I know for sure Conor is racist? No. Do I think he's capable of saying some silly things? Of course.

I'm sure when he called that fella a "faggot" he wasn't meaning to be homophobic - after all a lot of people have this silly presumption it's not a homophobic term, which is daft and I despise that word. He's just a bit backwards and, as wand puts it, thick.

Lord, I hate being a Conor apologist. I'll point out that he should never have said those things, but I can at least see logic in him not being a complete racist piece of shit for saying them.

[wandshogun09]

I honestly believe you could say a word like 'boy' and not mean it as racist, yeah? I don't know, I don't picture Conor reading up on black history, do you? 

Anyway, this is all nothing to do with 223. This isn't Question Time, unless you're last name's Dimbleby.

Is it? 

[ColinBollocks]

Yeah. It's hilarious that we can't escape the orbit of Planet Conor.

[David]

18 minutes ago, ColinBollocks said:

Maybe he doesn't think it is, though. As wand said, he's called white fighters "boy" and told them to dance before.

You also must remember in those situations you're forced to think on your feet too. Look how many fighters are shite at it, which points to how hard it is to come up with shite to say. If Conor's natural go to is to demean another man (black or white) by calling them "boy" then his brain probably quickly fires there.

Do I know for sure Conor is racist? No. Do I think he's capable of saying some silly things? Of course.

I'm sure when he called that fella a "faggot" he wasn't meaning to be homophobic - after all a lot of people have this silly presumption it's not a homophobic term, which is daft and I despise that word. He's just a bit backwards and, as wand puts it, thick.

Lord, I hate being a Conor apologist. I'll point out that he should never have said those things, but I can at least see logic in him not being a complete racist piece of shit for saying them.

My question then is where do we draw the line? Where do we decide who is actually a racist, and who's just "saying silly things"? Because the "just saying silly things" in the heat of the moment argument is one we've all seen wheeled out to defend various people.

McGregor, who at the time didn't know he was being filmed so we can't put it down to pressure on him to think on his feet or react for the millions watching, said to Lobov about Andre Fili "he's a f****t. I never knew he was a f****t.”

Not sure how you see that, but it seems pretty clear to me that he's meaning it in a homophobic manner.

Even his "apology" was a bit of an insight into how he feels, when he finished up saying sorry he then said "Any chance they get, they love to throw me under the bus, so it is what it is." 

Being thrown under the bus isn't the same as being correctly called out for being a homophobe, is it? His apology was more a case of him apologising if you were offended, rather than apologising for using the actual term.

Also, the last time I checked most racist & homophobic cunts were backwards and thick. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't be racist & homophobic, would they? 

The two tend to go hand in hand.

15 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

I honestly believe you could say a word like 'boy' and not mean it as racist, yeah? I don't know, I don't picture Conor reading up on black history, do you? 

Anyway, this is all nothing to do with 223. This isn't Question Time, unless you're last name's Dimbleby.

Is it? 

Tell you what then, next time you're in the company of an African American you try using the term and see how they react, yeah? I don't think it's really the place of a bunch of predominantly white dudes to decide what term an African American should be offended by, and how they should construe it.

But yeah, you're right. This isn't about UFC 223. Best sweep this shit under the carpet before we head into full-on apologist territory.

As you were, lads.

[ColinBollocks]

 

Quote

My question then is where do we draw the line? Where do we decide who is actually a racist, and who's just "saying silly things"? Because the "just saying silly things" in the heat of the moment argument is one we've all seen wheeled out to defend various people.

McGregor, who at the time didn't know he was being filmed so we can't put it down to pressure on him to think on his feet or react for the millions watching, said to Lobov about Andre Fili "he's a f****t. I never knew he was a f****t.”

Not sure how you see that, but it seems pretty clear to me that he's meaning it in a homophobic manner.

Even his "apology" was a bit of an insight into how he feels, when he finished up saying sorry he then said "Any chance they get, they love to throw me under the bus, so it is what it is." 

Being thrown under the bus isn't the same as being correctly called out for being a homophobe, is it? His apology was more a case of him apologising if you were offended, rather than apologising for using the actual term.

Also, the last time I checked most racist & homophobic cunts were backwards and thick. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't be racist & homophobic, would they? 

The two tend to go hand in hand.

Not really, David. I just appreciate that there is a certain weight to calling someone "racist" and "homophobic" so it's important to unpack the scenario, rather than just throw people to the wolves. Particularly when there is so much grey area to go over. Didn't Floyd Snr say Conor wasn't racist for saying what he did, for example. You know a fella that has experienced an ungodly amount of racial abuse throughout his lifetime, I presume.

I wouldn't say it, and as I typed in my last post people that think calling someone "faggot" isn't homophobic is silly - despite it being fairly common place only a few years ago.

Also, you may demean the apology, but he did say he wasn't racists. It's not nothing.

Anyway, we're getting away from your initial post about people just sweeping it under the rug as "lad banter", which clearly no one with reason has done. At the time it was a big news story and it's being discussed right now.

Quote

Tell you what then, next time you're in the company of an African American you try using the term and see how they react, yeah? I don't think it's really the place of a bunch of predominantly white dudes to decide what term an African American should be offended by, and how they should construe it.

Then why are we having this discussion?

Also, I'll need to be hyping a fight for it to be an exact scenario. Otherwise maybe Floyd Snr would think of me as racist if I'm calling him "boy" at my local Spoons.

[wandshogun09]

26 minutes ago, David said:

I don't think it's really the place of a bunch of predominantly white dudes to decide what term an African American should be offended by, and how they should construe it.

Are you black, Dave? Because if not, I don't think it's your place to decide either. 

Just because I don't constantly feel the need to be seen as the most outraged person in the room about anything that could possibly be seen as racism, and because I don't feel like I need to go around and apologise for being white, doesn't mean I want to sweep anything under the carpet or minimise racism.

People aren't saying the things he said are right. But a word like boy is a term that, unless you're black or are somewhat educated about why that word has a different meaning to certain people...it's just a word that means young man to a lot of people. I was brought up to not really even recognise skin colour and was completely unaware that the term 'boy' had any racist connotations until I was in my fucking 20s. I'm not thick or racist. I just didn't know the background behind it. It was actually someone on here (Ronnie, I think) who educated me on that after I mentioned that a video of Harley Race having a go at Ron Simmons in WCW had a bleeped out bit, and I wondered what he said to Simmons. Ronnie explained the 'boy' thing then and it was genuinely the first time I'd heard it in that context. I was probably 24/25 at the time. So it's not like everyone understands the gravity of certain words. Now Conor's shown plenty of times that he can be a fucking helmet. So I wouldn't put it past him saying it with some racist intent behind it. But I'm at least open to entertaining the possibility that he just wasn't clued up on the weight a word like 'boy' can carry when said to a black person. 

At the end of the day, it's just a fucking MMA thread, man. People aren't coming in here to listen to your 'I have a dream' speeches. But at the same time, it doesn't mean we're all sat at our tablets with the Klan hood on either, just because we're not going from 1-100 on this 'Conor McGregor is racist' thing you seem so fucking obsessed with. 

[David]

If you look back, this discussion was kickstarted by someone asking me why I don't like McGregor. I didn't jump in and start discussing racism and homophobia from the off, did I? I was discussing why I thought McGregor would rather not face Khabib if he was given the choice between him and Ferguson or Holloway. Pure MMA discussion, nothing more.

I then posted my reply, which most on here know the answer to, but I figured maybe Tildeguy was new or something, and I thought it best to be polite and reply, and to also let him know that my dislike of McGregor is actually based on something concrete, and not just a blind hatred for no reason.

It was then Bollocks and you who continued the discussion, not me. If no one else had mentioned it or continued discussing the points I'd made it would have been nothing more than that exchange.

But by the same token, if I see what looks like people who are trying to explain away or excuse his behaviour then I'm going to press them on that, it would be wrong not to. You liking me doing that or not matters not a jot to me, if I'm honest.

If you don't like the way the discussion is going then feel free to not get involved, slugger.

[Egg Shen]

22 minutes ago, wandshogun09 said:

I was brought up to not really even recognise skin colour and was completely unaware that the term 'boy' had any racist connotations until I was in my fucking 20s. I'm not thick or racist. I just didn't know the background behind it. 

i genuinely had no idea until recently either, i think i found out about it watching Boardwalk Empire.

[wandshogun09]

Who says watching TV doesn't educate you, eh? 

Oh yeah, as usual, if you added UFC 223 to your Sky planner before Ferguson pulled out don't forget you'll have to add it again. 

[David]

6 minutes ago, Egg Shen said:

i genuinely had no idea until recently either, i think i found out about it watching Boardwalk Empire.

Yeah, but neither you nor any of the rest of us are high-profile figures who have had dealings in the US in the same way McGregor has. If you've been working over there in any capacity you pick up on that kind of thing fast.

And as I've said before, if it was the only thing he'd ever done I would probably be more inclined to believe that it was a slight slip-up, but it isn't. He's got history saying dodgy shit based around the culture or race of his opponent.

Toss in the homophobic remarks as well and it doesn't paint a pretty picture, whichever way people may want to spin it. 

[Carbomb]

Whilst I wouldn't imply that anyone defending Conor over the "boy" remark is a racist, I do agree with David that I think Conor either should've known better, or did and thought "fuck it anyway". It doesn't seem like much, but I find it unlikely that someone who's apparently as into hip-hop and its culture as much as he claims doesn't understand the implications of "boy" in the US; he really should've reigned that shit in. If I'm honest, I'm getting the impression he's more intelligent than he's let on; there's just something about him that says he knew exactly what he was doing, and that he had the plausible deniability of people thinking he's a "tick nort Dubliner" to incur enough doubt to get away with it.

At best, he's an unscrupulous carny who'll deliberately resort to cheap heat to promote a match, and at worst he's an ignorant, backward racist. And I say this as someone who has been a fan and would've defended some of his behaviour in the early days. But at this point, it's all mounted up with his other remarks to paint a very unpretty picture indeed.

We know McG is perfectly capable of promoting a bout without having to resort to that kind of shit; he's done it before. I'd rather he:

1. Stop fucking about with his demands for ridiculous money, and get back to MMA - he's not going to get another Mayweather payday, simple as

2. Drop the offensive shite and just go back to taking the piss like he used to

3. Defend those fucking belts against the rightful contenders, and don't bother with King Bong Diaz until he's ready to retire.

[Keith Houchen]

"Boy" is commonplace in Irish vernacular. It's like mate, dude etc. But as David said, white people don't get to decide what is and isn't racist. White people should shut the fuck up and listen to why a minority says something is racist and learn from it. Just because Sr said it wasn't racist doesn't discount all the black voices who say it was.

McG didn't use the term again to a black man so he learned from it, shame he didn't learn from saying cholo or Nazi but there you go.

[Carbomb]

Just now, Keith Houchen said:

"Boy" is commonplace in Irish vernacular. It's like mate, dude etc. But as David said, white people don't get to decide what is and isn't racist. White people should shut the fuck up and listen to why a minority says something is racist and learn from it. Just because Sr said it wasn't racist doesn't discount all the black voices who say it was.

McG didn't use the term again to a black man so he learned from it, shame he didn't learn from saying cholo or Nazi but there you go.

I know that - I just think that McG's cultural experiences (as far as he's displayed his understanding of them) give a valid foundation for expecting him to know better than to hurl the word at a black American in front of the world's press.

As for the rest of your post - bang on.