UFC 203: Miocic vs Overeem / CM Punk's debut

[WyattSheepMask]

The UFC did get stung good and proper with Toney, and that's their own fault.

You saw the footage of him training, I.e boxing which he had down no problem but other than that all you had to go on was his camp saying he had tapped out King Mo in training, which must have been like when Gerald Briscoe pinned Crash for the Hardcore title when Crash was asleep, because it was clear from the second the fight started that Tomey had nothing. I don't think he even managed to get a punch off as Couture took him down almost immediately and just dragged it out for his own amusement.

 

Like I've said already, I've no doubt that Punk will have given everything he has to his training and will give it his all on the night.

[JakeRobertsParoleOfficer]

 

At this Point Toney was collecting pay cheques!

 

The Toney vs Jirov is a thing to behold!

 

At this point he was looking to cash out and Dana was looking to avenge MMA after Mercer sparker Sylvia bad when about 103!!

 

Thing is just cos u excellent in some other physical sport don't make u star!

 

Mariusz is a prime example! Arguably the greatest world strongest man ever!a bonafide legend yet so mediocre in mma!

 

Take physique out the equation and tell me what mma fighter u'd fancy vs prime:

 

Severn

Shamrock

Couture

Fedor

Silva

Frye

 

Todays bunch would be fodder!

[Gus Mears]

I actually! enjoyed the! novelty of ! James Ton!ey doing M!M!A!. Same as!!! Punk, as! a relat!ve casual,!! it ! draw!s ! me !! in.!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

In answer to your question JRPO, I would pick Giant Silva out of that list.

[wandshogun09]

!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Giant Silva was hilarious in Pride. He had one fight where he actually chased his opponent with a big Flintstones club thingy after the fight.

[Gus Mears]

I need to find footage of this immediately. Giant Silva was great, a keen practitioner of the Kimura and basically like watching Treebeard do MMA.

[jimufctna24]

Take physique out the equation and tell me what mma fighter u'd fancy vs prime:

 

Severn

Shamrock

Couture

Fedor

Silva

Frye

 

Todays bunch would be fodder!

Jon Jones would beat all of them.  Other than perhaps Fedor. 

[wandshogun09]

I need to find footage of this immediately. Giant Silva was great, a keen practitioner of the Kimura and basically like watching Treebeard do MMA.

Best I can find, Gus...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=w-M_4ib0O6E

 

Fuck knows where he got that big club from. Must've been part of his entrance or something. Which now makes me want to see his entrance (kennethwilliams.jpeg).

[Gus Mears]

Thanks Wand! That's superb. I'd love to know what he planned to do after stropping around the ring like a moody Barney Rubble.

[wandshogun09]

I think he was planning to make his opponents arse look like the flag of Japan with that big stick. Like a really violent Art Attack. I bet he wouldn't even have bothered with the PVA glue either. Try it yourself!

[Guest]

Fuck knows where he got that big club from.

I don't know if he tore it from the ring, but in any case, that's what they'd have been doing afterwards.

[jimufctna24]

It was a pro wrestling angle according to Wiki.

 

I assume the plan was for Silva to face Sugiura in NOAH or New Japan. In those days, MMA and Pro Wrestling were regularly mixed together in Japan. Those sort of stunts could have backfired. What if Sugiura had been knocked out by Silva? Would Silva have lunged at an unconscious body with the club? 

[wandshogun09]

Pride were actually going to bring in Vader to fight on one of their Bushido cards around this time as well. But it never happened because Vader was physically knackered and could barely walk down a flight of stairs.

 

This is an English translation from the Pride: Secret Files book on the Pride/Vader thing and why it fell apart...

 

In the past there had been many pro-wrestlers that had fought in PRIDE, but the appearance of the "emperor" Big Van Vader had also gotten to the very end of preparations. It was a plan that, if it had been made reality, would have had everyone talking - exactly why did it end a phantom?

 

It goes without saying that PRIDE's launching point was Nobuhiko Takada vs. Rickson Gracie. In that fight, the man called "the strongest" within the pro-wrestling world, Takada, would represent pro-wrestling, to challenge the legendary champion Rickson Gracie in a dream bout. In the beginning of Japanese MMA, "measuring the strength of pro-wrestlers" was one of the essential themes. Riding that wave, in 1995, Kendou Nagasaki who was 47 at the time also competed in an MMA ring (and in an event put on by Shooto), so it can only be said that it was an amazing time.

 

At the time, pro-wrestling fans were wrapped up in their fantasies, hoping for "a pro-wrestler that will make waves for us in MMA." And inside that, there was a foreign wrestler that would have allowed them to carry on their fantasies. He had had wild matches in NJPW against Antonio Inoki, Tatsumi Fujinami and Shinya Hashimoto, going on to a fierce battle against Takada in UWF-International, he was called "Gaijin Resura-Saikyou" ("The Strongest Foreign Wrestler") - Vader.

 

Not only was he huge, at 190 cm and 170 kg, he also had the speed that comes with being a pro American Football player, and that was also combined with the agility to pull off moonsaults left and right. As well, he had boxing experience, and there were rumors during his time in WWE like, "He was just too powerful, I couldn't absorb his attacks," so there were plenty of fans at the start of Japanese MMA in the 90's thinking, "If there's anyone that could make it in MMA, it would be Vader!"

 

Vader actually had been booked once for an MMA event. It was U-JAPAN held at Ariake Coliseum in November 1996. The concept (as said at the time) was to pit pro-wrestlers, Yoji Anjou, Mitsuhiro Matsunaga, Katsumi Usada, against MMA fighters in the matchmaking, with Vader's opponent being Kimo in the main event.

 

The matchmaking talks didn't work out in the end, and in his place, Crusher Bam Bam Bigelow fought. He suffered a loss to Kimo a bit over two minutes into the match. The event ended with everyone from the pro-wrestler side, including female Yoko Takahashi, being defeated.

 

Bigelow along with Vader was working in NJPW at the time, and of course he also was a huge and agile top foreigner, but to rank them, Vader was above. They also became tag team champions, but there was a strong impression that Bigelow was just supporting cast for Vader.

 

So, still, pro-wrestling fans believed, "Well, Bigelow was no good, but if it were Vader......." or maybe it was just that he was the only one left.

 

From the start, many pro-wrestlers appeared in PRIDE, but the number that were successful is few, counting Alexander Otsuka, Kazushi Sakuraba, and a few others. A feeling started spreading that it was wasteful seeing these repeated slayings and that, "Pro-wrestling and MMA are just different," and the appearance of pro-wrestlers in MMA started to become less and less of a talking point. Not to mention Mirko Crocop, who had dispatched with a number of famous pro-wrestlers including Kazuyuki Fujita as the "pro-wrestler hunter," peeling the skin right off of the "pro-wrestler fantasy."

 

Vader's name was raised in the second half of 2003. Brought to PRIDE by an unnamed person, he related that Vader was expressing interest in PRIDE.

 

But at this point, Vader was already 48. He was in his 30s when he appeared in NJPW, and he was 38 when he had his match in U-Inter against Takada. It's an age that wouldn't be a problem in pro-wrestling, but to be at the top in MMA, after all, he was too old.

 

As well, besides having absolutely no experience in MMA, adding up his career in NJPW, U-Inter, WWE, All-Japan [Pro-Wrestling], Noah, he must have been dealing with many built-up injuries. Even if they decided suddenly to use him, it wouldn't have been strange at all if he hesitated.

 

At the time, DSE was working to put together Bushido at the exact time as HUSTLE. From that, a plan was formed, "Let's have him appear in HUSTLE first, and then maybe put him in Bushido." There would be no problem for Vader to work in HUSTLE, and Bushido was a place where experimental matches could happen outside of PRIDE, so it made some sense.

 

Like this, Vader came to Japan to face off against Shinya Hashimoto in HUSTLE 1 on January 4, 2004. But then something unbelievable happened. Vader's condition was poorer than anyone had expected.

 

The first thing to strike the staff upon seeing Vader when he arrived in Japan was that he appeared to have difficulty walking down stairs by himself. It is easy for pro-wrestlers to injure their knees, and not a few of them have trouble walking when they get out of the ring. Vader didn't fall outside of that group, and to ask "Are you alright?" must have been natural at the time.

 

But this wasn't the only incident. The day before the match, he was vomiting blood in his hotel room! His body was wearing the scars of a lifetime of damage, and not even thinking about PRIDE, having something happen in the HUSTLE ring would not have been unexpected. In the end, his HUSTLE match went on as planned, but with his poor ability to move, this ended up being a one-time affair, and naturally, plans to use him in PRIDE disappeared.

 

Even in normal circumstances, there have been a number of pro-wrestlers that have died. The year before this as well, 2002, saw Davey Boy Smith die at the young age of 39, leaving behind grieving fans. If it came to be a case of "Famous wrestler, died in PRIDE," PRIDE itself may have been driven into the extinction. It wasn't the case where they could just ignore some problems and put him in anyway.

 

It was like this that Vader's appearance in PRIDE became a phantom, but if it had happened in his 30s when his power was at its peak, in the era before all the theories had been established in MMA, what kind of fight would he have shown us...... Or maybe for it to end just a fantasy was for the best. But looking at Brock Lesnar, who went from the WWE to the UFC, it does make us wish we could have seen the manly figure of Vader in that armor and helmet blowing smoke in the PRIDE ring.

[WyattSheepMask]

Pride:Secret Files book? Where can I get that from

[Egg Shen]

Yeh, i'd love to read that.

 

I'll never tire of seeing sportsmen/wrestlers/actors cross over into MMA. There's a place for all sorts of fights in the sport in my opinion.

[wandshogun09]

Pride:Secret Files book? Where can I get that from

It was only released in Japanese but there's an English translation of the whole thing about if you don't mind reading through the Scrib'd app.

 

Here's the link, hopefully it still works;

 

https://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/150335071/PRIDE-Secret-Files

 

All sorts of interesting bits of info in there. The planned Mike Tyson world tour with him fighting Fedor and Cro Cop. Plans for Evander Holyfield to come in and fight Akebono. Talks about bringing in Kimbo and GSP before they were household names. Early plans for a reality show that predates TUF. Loads of shit. Can't remember if it covers the time the Pride president was suspiciously found dead in the shower. Pride's history fascinates me. It's a way more interesting story than the UFC's IMO.