The Ultimate Fighter 17: 'Team Jones vs Team Sonnen'

[Supremo]

Exactly. If I were planning to keep Brock as champion then the last thing I'd do after he nearly died is put him in a cage with Carwin, who at the time was a fucking killer.

[ColinBollocks]

When it comes to Lesnar's career, some people seem to forget what Lesnar's illness did to him, physically. I'm doubtful he would have ever beat Velasquez and remained champion, but I'm pretty sure we would have got a better Lesnar in his last few fights. Post-surgery Lesnar was a bit like Superman without his superpowers, Lesnar was a fighter that had insane physical attributes but he seemed zapped of his incredible speed and agility, during his last two/three fights. Also, missing nearly two years of regular training doesn't help a 'limited' fighter like Lesnar too.

[David]

Exactly. If I were planning to keep Brock as champion then the last thing I'd do after he nearly died is put him in a cage with Carwin, who at the time was a fucking killer.

If you remember back there was originally a bout scheduled between Carwin & Cain Velasquez to see who would face Lesnar for the title. This fight was scrapped, Carwin moved straight to the fight with Lesnar, and Velasquez given Ben Rothwell instead. There was no official reason given for this switch if I recall correctly? It was this move that originally alerted me to the fact that the UFC were looking to string the Lesnar story out for as long as possible.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Brock was given easy fights. There are no real easy fights when you get to the UFC main card on PPV. What I am saying is that the UFC were looking to improve the odds of Lesnar holding onto the strap for as long as possible, and keep those PPV dollars flowing in. Carwin wasn't a chump by any means, but he certainly wasn't as multi-faceted as Cain at the time (and was much more marketable, which was a major factor).

 

Of course the likes of Carwin & Mir posed a threat to Lesnar, and he did well to beat both of them, but there was no way the UFC wanted Cain Velasquez getting hold of Lesnar any sooner than he really had to, which is why he was removed from the reckoning, eventually getting that shot almost a year to the day later. Carwin was tough, no doubt, but Velasquez was at a different level even then.

 

When it comes to Lesnar's career, some people seem to forget what Lesnar's illness did to him, physically. I'm doubtful he would have ever beat Velasquez and remained champion, but I'm pretty sure we would have got a better Lesnar in his last few fights. Post-surgery Lesnar was a bit like Superman without his superpowers, Lesnar was a fighter that had insane physical attributes but he seemed zapped of his incredible speed and agility, during his last two/three fights. Also, missing nearly two years of regular training doesn't help a 'limited' fighter like Lesnar too.

His last two fights were against Velasquez & Overeem. I doubt a fully fit Lesnar would have managed to beat either of them, or even change the outcome. He was dealing with the very top guys in the division by that point, and he simply wasn't good enough to compete.

[Supremo]

That's rubbish. Carwin was the interim champion at the time. That's why he fought Brock before Cain. To unify the belts. It once again had nothing to do with protection. It wouldn't have made any sense the other way. They originally booked Cain vs. Carwin for the interim belt, but then Lesnar announced he was ready to return so they switched it to the unification fight. No plan. No protection. Just logic.

[David]

That's rubbish. Carwin was the interim champion at the time. That's why he fought Brock before Cain. To unify the belts. It once again had nothing to do with protection. It wouldn't have made any sense the other way. They originally booked Cain vs. Carwin for the interim belt, but then Lesnar announced he was ready to return so they switched it to the unification fight. No plan. No protection. Just logic.

Far be it for me to doubt your knowledge, but I recall at the time various media sources, such as MMAFighting.com, saying that no reason was given for the switch;

 

Shane Carwin will face Brock Lesnar for the UFC heavyweight title at UFC 106.

 

FanHouse has learned that Carwin's bout against Cain Velasquez at UFC 104 has officially been scrapped, and the 11-0 heavyweight will main event the November 21st card in Las Vegas against Lesnar (4-1).

 

MMAMadness.com first reported the news of the potential title fight late Tuesday evening.

 

The Carwin vs. Velasquez bout at UFC 104 was supposed to determine the No.1 contender for the UFC heavyweight title. No word just yet on who Velasquez will be facing instead, but FanHouse has learned that the 6-0 American Kickboxing Academy will still be competing on the October 24 card in Los Angeles.

 

No official reason was given for the switch.

 

Carwin is 3-0 inside the Octagon, however, only one of his victories -- a first-round TKO win over Gabriel Gonzaga at UFC 96 -- has come on the main card.

 

Lesnar captured the UFC heavyweight crown when he defeated Randy Couture at UFC 91. He successfully defended it at UFC 100 in July, defeating interim champion Frank Mir via second-round TKO.

ESPN also went with this at the time;

 

In the Ultimate Fighting Championship, there is no such thing as a title eliminator. When two top contenders square off, there is no guarantee the victor will be awarded a shot at the champion.

 

There was a fight scheduled a few months ago that might have bucked that theory. Highly rated heavyweights Shane Carwin and Cain Velasquez were originally slated to meet Saturday night at UFC 104 in Los Angeles.

 

It was reasonably believed by most mixed martial arts fans that the winner would get a date with titleholder Brock Lesnar. The champion, however, had no desire to wait around while potential opponents duked it out for the right to face him. Lesnar asked to fight sooner rather than later.

 

He got his wish. Lesnar will face Carwin at UFC 106 on Nov. 14.

 

With Carwin no longer on his immediate to-do list, Velasquez was given another man to face at Staples Center this weekend: Ben Rothwell.

Even after beating Rothwell into oblivion Velasquez still wasn't considered the next in line for a crack at Lesnar;

 

There

[Supremo]

Ah. I was getting mixed up on whether we were talking about before or after Brock got ill. Point remains though, that when Brock came back the only fight they could make was the Carwin fight, as he was by that point the interim champion. There wasn't a choice. And, again, choosing Carwin over Cain at that point may have been about protection, but could have just as easily been about stardom; Carwin was a much better contender simply due to the knock outs he'd amassed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by contrast to Carwin killing everyone, hadnt Cain just struggled against Kongo, looking far less a threat?

[wandshogun09]

Dave, you are right about Carwin vs Cain being planned but there were other factors going on at the time. This is my brief timeline of that period as I remember it;

 

Summer 09 Affliction went bust. This opened up the Fedor negotiations. Dana was so confident they would sign him that it was put out on some sites that Brock vs Fedor was planned for UFC 106 that Nov.

 

Cain vs Carwin was then booked as co-main for UFC 104 to take place in Oct 2009.

 

Fedor negotiations went tits up. Brock needed a new challenger for Nov. UFC scrapped Carwin/Cain and booked Brock vs Carwin for UFC 106. Rothwell stepped in vs Cain.

 

Carwin coming off KOing Gonzaga while Cain went to a decision with Kongo. So it's understandable why Carwin got the nod.

 

Brock got hi illness, pulled from 106 and out indefinitely. Carwin got re-booked vs Mir to crown an interim champ in Brock's absence. Carwin became interim champ.

 

Brock returned. Fought Carwin in Jul 2010. Wasn't about protecting Brock as Cain was still climbing the ranks.

[David]

Ah. I was getting mixed up on whether we were talking about before or after Brock got ill. Point remains though, that when Brock came back the only fight they could make was the Carwin fight, as he was by that point the interim champion. There wasn't a choice. And, again, choosing Carwin over Cain at that point may have been about protection, but could have just as easily been about stardom; Carwin was a much better contender simply due to the knock outs he'd amassed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but by contrast to Carwin killing everyone, hadnt Cain just struggled against Kongo, looking far less a threat?

I'm not sure why there's this absolute refusal to admit that the UFC did their best to protect the image and marketability of Lesnar for as long as they could? He was a guy who came into the game in his 30's, very limited as far as technical ability went, but who was drawing massively due to his pro wrestling background. It makes perfect sense that the UFC would try to keep him competitive for as long as possible.

 

Again, Lesnar wasn't given "easy" fights, it's just that his opponents were chosen wisely. Carwin was definately a threat, but aside from having heavy hands he had fuck all really. His cardio was always under question, whilst Velasquez was already by that point being touted as the next big heavyweight.

 

Protecting a draw isn't something that only applies to Lesnar. Look at the signing of the fight between St-Pierre and Nick Diaz. Much like they did with Jon Fitch, the UFC are going to do their utmost to keep Hendricks away from St-Pierre. It makes simple business sense really.

[Supremo]

I refuse it (like everyone else has) because it's almost entirely untrue in this instance. He was almost always given the logical, toughest opponent available. They weren't chosen, "wisely." it was just whoever was next in line. And the fact that the only thing you're still grasping onto is this Carwin/Cain thing further proves it. Originally you described his whole UFC career as carefully planned, but it's already been whittled down to this one crux, which both me and wand have attributed the Kongo bout to. If the choice for Lesnar's next opponent was between a one punch KO'ing Carwin and a guy who got clipped a few times by Kongo, it made perfect promotional sense to go with Carwin. Hardly feels like protection either, when Cain was coming out of that performance with people questioning his chin.

 

Of the two, at that point, it's arguable that Carwin was more dangerous.

 

I've no problem admitting when they protect guys. The point is that in this instance they really, really didn't.

[David]

Ah. I was getting mixed up on whether we were talking about before or after Brock got ill. Point remains though, that when Brock came back the only fight they could make was the Carwin fight, as he was by that point the interim champion. There wasn't a choice.

Yet none of the major websites that covered the sport at the time, such as ESPN, MMAFighting, Sherdog etc made mention of this obvious point?

 

And, again, choosing Carwin over Cain at that point may have been about protection, but could have just as easily been about stardom

I've no problem admitting when they protect guys. The point is that in this instance they really, really didn't.

Which is it?

 

The fact is, if you go back to that era those in the know were talking about Velasquez, not Carwin. Carwin was a heavy hitter in his mid-30's who had never seen the 2nd frame in his UFC career. Velasquez was younger, hungrier and had a much more varied skillset, and definately had what it took to give Lesnar more trouble than Carwin ever could.

 

Even after Velasquez thoroughly dismantled Rothwell the UFC still didn't want to put him in there with Lesnar. It was always going to be Lesnar's first real taste of facing an elite level heavyweight, and the UFC held off on that for as long as they could.

[wandshogun09]

The fact is, if you go back to that era those in the know were talking about Velasquez, not Carwin. Carwin was a heavy hitter in his mid-30's who had never seen the 2nd frame in his UFC career. Velasquez was younger, hungrier and had a much more varied skillset, and definately had what it took to give Lesnar more trouble than Carwin ever could.

 

People defo saw more future in Cain, of course. How could you not? But at that time I don't remember anyone "in the know" vocalising much in the way of Carwin not being a legit top contender. At that time all the talk about heavyweight was that Lesnar-Cain-Carwin would be the rulers of the division while guys like Mir would pop into contention now and then and JDS was merely a prospect (despite having a harder route to the top than either Cain or Carwin).

 

For me, there were two times they could have made the Brock vs Cain fight before they actually did. But there were very valid reasons why they didn't.

 

a)

They could have done it in late 2009 when the Fedor talks dried up. Problem there is the late 2009 cards were being finalised in the Summer. In the Summer you had 2 possible candidates to challenge for Brock's belt.

 

Cain or Carwin. Neither at that point had fought much in the way of top competition. They'd both just had their first 'step-up' fight in their previous outings, Cain fought Kongo while Carwin was matched with Gonzaga. Both Kongo and Gonzaga were pretty significant steps up from Cain and Carwin's previous opponents and the UFC probably set those fights up with the idea that whoever won more impressively would likely get the next crack at Brock.

 

Who won more impressively? Cain dominated Kongo but ultimately went to the cards and got badly rocked every single time they were standing, which was the start of each round. Carwin turned in one of the most crazy one rounders of the year getting hurt early doors by Gonzaga and then firing back with a crushing one punch KO.

 

If they were going to try to set Brock up with the more winnable fight, based on these 2 examples, they'd have gone with Cain surely. Didn't show really dangerous power and showed that he can be hurt on the feet. Plus he's smaller than Carwin. And Brock, despite his limitations had that clubbing right which put Randy away and sent Herring doing backflips. Based on the Kongo fight it's not out of the question to think Brock might have caught Cain with a big shot.

 

Of course knowing what we know now that sounds silly but back then, if they were supposedly choosing Brock's next opponent based on who's less likely to beat him, Carwin looked more of a threat than Cain.

 

b)

The second time they could have made it would have been when Brock returned from his illness in the Summer of 2010. By then Cain had racked up impressive wins over Rothwell and Big Nog. He undoubtedly deserved a title shot. Problem here is that Carwin had won the interim title in the meantime, dispatching Frank Mir with ease.

 

They couldn't very well overlook the interim champ in favour of Cain when Brock came back could they?

 

Even after Velasquez thoroughly dismantled Rothwell the UFC still didn't want to put him in there with Lesnar. It was always going to be Lesnar's first real taste of facing an elite level heavyweight, and the UFC held off on that for as long as they could.

 

But back then we didn't know Cain was a true elite level heavyweight for sure. It was all hype and hearsay until he started knocking off Rothwells and Nogs. Which he hadn't when they originally booked Carwin as #1 contender.

 

Cain got his shot soon enough anyway. As soon as Brock beat Carwin, Cain was rightly next in line. It wasn't like they dragged it out. Brock beat Carwin in July, 3 months later he was in there with Cain.

[Supremo]

Ah. I was getting mixed up on whether we were talking about before or after Brock got ill. Point remains though, that when Brock came back the only fight they could make was the Carwin fight, as he was by that point the interim champion. There wasn't a choice.

Yet none of the major websites that covered the sport at the time, such as ESPN, MMAFighting, Sherdog etc made mention of this obvious point?

What point? That when current champions return they should face interim champions to unify the belts? I imagine nobody mentioned that because it doesn't need to be mentioned. It's common sense, isn't it?

 

And, again, choosing Carwin over Cain at that point may have been about protection, but could have just as easily been about stardom

I've no problem admitting when they protect guys. The point is that in this instance they really, really didn't.

Which is it?

Originally I wasn't sure if this was during the same time period as when Cain had the Kongo fight. Now that it's been confimed that it was then it's definitely the latter. Sorry for the confusion. Brock wasn't protected at all. Based on their previous performances (Cain vs. Kongo and Carwin vs. Gonzaga), it was actually Carwin who was the more dangerous and impressive of the two.

 

The fact is, if you go back to that era those in the know were talking about Velasquez, not Carwin. Carwin was a heavy hitter in his mid-30's who had never seen the 2nd frame in his UFC career. Velasquez was younger, hungrier and had a much more varied skillset, and definately had what it took to give Lesnar more trouble than Carwin ever could.

They weren't selling pay per views to, "those in the know." They were selling pay per views to fans, fans who'd just seen Carwin get another first round knock out, whereas Cain had struggled and got clipped a few times against Cheick Kongo. Whichever way you slice it, it made sense for Carwin to get the nod once the Fedor deal fell through. He was by far the most legitimate contender.

 

Even after Velasquez thoroughly dismantled Rothwell the UFC still didn't want to put him in there with Lesnar. It was always going to be Lesnar's first real taste of facing an elite level heavyweight, and the UFC held off on that for as long as they could.

Wait, what? After the Rothwell fight (Oct 2009) there was no Brock Lesnar to fight, as Brock had been sticken with his illness leading up to the original Carwin fight and wouldn't be seen for a year. And by the time Brock returned, as I've already mentioned, Carwin was the interim champion and so was the automatic opponent. They weren't denying Cain a shot at Lesnar during that time for business purposes; Brock was too busy nearly losing his life at the time! Now that I've reminded myself of the entire scenario, Cain got his shot exactly when he should have. They didn't protect Brock at all.

 

And again, do you not think clinging onto this sole, solitary crux is pointless, given you originally claimed Lesnar's whole run was carefully and wisely planned so as to have him avoid top guys?

 

EDIT: Thanks for confirming I wasn't going crazy wand! For whatever reason, I felt like that Kongo fight was much earlier in Cain's career. Seems crazy to think it was only a year or so later when he won the belt and looked unstoppable. He looked worryingly human going against Cheick Kongo.

[wandshogun09]

EDIT: Thanks for confirming I wasn't going crazy wand! For whatever reason, I felt like that Kongo fight was much earlier in Cain's career. Seems crazy to think it was only a year or so later when he won the belt and looked unstoppable. He looked worryingly human going against Cheick Kongo.

 

Yeah it was one of those fights where I think Cain learned a ton though. His biggest win to that point was Jake O'Brien. Pretty much a straight wrestler and Cain breezed through him. Kongo was doing good at that time and was a legit test. Defo the best striker Cain had been in with and I think it opened Cain's eyes about that next level.

 

He still completely dominated about 13 minutes of that fight and looked good doing it. But he probably learned more in that fight than he had in all his previous quick fights combined. He looked much better on the feet even a few months later against Rothwell.

 

At the end of the day, it didn't matter. Brock would have had to fight everyone in the end if he was going to keep the title. If he'd got by Cain there'd have been JDS, if he'd got by JDS then Overeem was coming in. Gone are the days when the likes of Tim Sylvia could get a lengthy run as UFC heavyweight champion

 

Anyway, back on the topic of the thread...

 

 

There's only 1 gangsta in this pic. And he's not named after a coin. Or black.

 

[David]

Yeah, I made an error that I promised myself I'd never do again. Mention Brock Lesnar in a negative light as far as MMA goes on a pro wrestling forum

 

Back on topic, out of interest, does anyone think that Sonnen sees two frames in this fight? It'll be interesting to see how the betting lines look. The actual result won't deliver much, so it'll be down to method of finish and length of fight I reckon.

[wandshogun09]

Yeah, I made an error that I promised myself I'd never do again. Mention Brock Lesnar in a negative light as far as MMA goes on a pro wrestling forum

 

It's nothing to do with pro wrestling for me. I just genuinely don't feel that Brock was protected.

 

Back on topic, out of interest, does anyone think that Sonnen sees two frames in this fight? It'll be interesting to see how the betting lines look. The actual result won't deliver much, so it'll be down to method of finish and length of fight I reckon.

 

I see it going something like this;

 

Fight week arrives. Chael turns up to the press conference on fine form;

 

 

He's telling us that he stole Jon Jones' title from his Nike: 'Bones Knows' duffle bag at the TUF gym during filming - "like a ganster in the night" - and Jones did nothing about it.

 

He'll do the usual Ariel Helwani interview;

 

"If he wants this belt back he can try to take it on Saturday night. Try to take it from the real champion. The people's champion. Undefeated and undisputed. The master of disaster. The king of sting. The Count of Monte Fisto. The gangster from the mean streets of West Linn, Oregon. Chael P. Sonnen.

 

The man with the biggest arms, the man with the most charm and the man who will finish the job - because Belfort couldn't - on Jones' arm. On that night I will put my title around my waist, I will bite down on my mouthpiece and I will make that walk".

 

Then we come to the weigh ins.

 

Chael has his game face well and truly on;

 

Jones looks unimpressed;

 

Fight night arrives and the PPV opens with a familiar sight...

 

Chael is talking some more. For those who can't lip read he's saying, with that eery PPV opening music in the background, something like;

 

"Tonight I will show little Jonny why you don't fuck with an OG from West Linn. My style is impetuous. My defence is impregnable. And I'm just ferocious. I want your heart, I want to eat his children. Praise be to Allah"

 

Maybe not the Allah bit. Cue that shitty 'Face the Pain' song and we're off.

 

Finally the time comes for the main event. Chael Sonnen, as promised, "makes that walk", looking intense as fuck in the process...

 

 

He swaggers around the cage to the strains of 'Too much fun' by Daryle Singletary, and watches on as Jones climbs the steps and enters the Octagon.

 

 

Shit is on now.

 

Chael points across to Dana White at cageside;

 

"Remember who put these asses in these seats. I better be getting a fucking fat PPV bonus for this beating I'm about to get buddy"

 

Jones looks at Chael like a lion looks at a gazelle before making it's move;

 

Bruce Buffer takes the centre of the Octagon and does his thing;

 

After obliterating his vocal cords to tell us who these two people are, it is indeed time. Goldberg and Rogan are creaming themselves in the commentary booth, trying to make out like Chael poses some kind of threat.

 

Mike Goldberg utters the familiar words - "Get ready world"

 

"CHAEL SONNEN"

 

"JON JONES"

 

"Here. We. Go"

 

The fight starts and it's not going well for old Chael. Not well at all. He struggles with Jones' reach on the feet, struggles to take Jones down, struggles to even get in range for a takedown and he's getting embarrassingly picked apart with kicks and elbows while wiffing on takedown attempts. He barely survives round 1.

 

It's all going Pete Tong and while sitting on the stool between rounds, Chael briefly considers whether he should go ahead and do his usual trick of putting himself in a triangle and ending the misery;

 

 

Then he remembers he can't even take Jones down so that's not an option.

 

As round 2 starts he gets desperate. Similar to how he did in round 2 against Anderson last time. He goes balls out for a takedown resulting in Jones winding up on top, dropping elbows and then finishing Chael with a choke.

 

A guillotine from the top like he did to Bader, to be specific. At 2:32 of the 2nd round to be even more specific.

 

 

 

"AND IT IS AALLLL OVER!"

 

Says Mike.

 

"WOW! OUTSTANDING. OUT...STANDING! UN..BELIEVABLE! WHO CAN STOP THAT MAN?"

 

Says Joe.

 

The camera cuts to a shot of an emotionally distraught LambyUK in the crowd, unable to contain his heartbreak at the horrors that just took place. He does a face something like this;

 

 

(Editor's note: race may vary)

 

Chael gets up, battered and dejected. A beaten man;

 

We see the combatants embrace something like this;

 

And Buffer makes it official;

 

Chael can't hide his disappointment as Rogan shouts in his face and probably gets a bit of weed spit on his lovely shirt;

 

Chael is all class in his interview and declares Jones the better man.

 

From there a crushed Chael makes "that other walk", to the dressing room;

 

By this point LambyUK, his new wife unable to console him, charges at the aisle way of the Prudential Centre to offer words of love and support. But Chael's in no mood for flirting and coldly shuns Lamby's advances, instead pulling his hat over his face to pretend he didn't see him...

 

 

From there it's press conference time.

 

Jon Jones, with his belt still intact, is happy;

 

Dana, counting the money, is very happy;

 

Chael?

 

Not so much.

 

Within 2 days, Chael is back to his old self and takes to Twitter to target his next 'victim'...

 

 

That's pretty much exactly how I see it going.