The Undertaker...

[d-d-d-dAz]

Now now, granted he's been pushed as top babyface for years. But, he's regularly played seccond fiddle to bigger feuds and storyline arcs. He's been the centrepiece far more than anyone else over the last few years, of course, but to say he's alwas been the centrepiece is way off.

And you know it.

I even gave examples of the stuff that's been pushed as the centrepiece, which you cut out of the cute to do the little cena laughing pic.

 

That's certainly been the intention, it's never been the case.

 

They try to subordinate Cena for periods of time, to WWE title feuds or Triple H feuds, but it never sticks and after a few weeks Cena (and whichever mid-card schlub he's making look a million dollars at that time) tend to float to the top of the pack. And headline PPV's in a silly ambulance match.

 

John Cena has been the story since before he even won his first title.

 

He deserves being classed in the top tier for a bunch of reasons. The most pressing of which is that after ten years he's still working the same mental schedule and making the most uninspiring of mid-carders look like killers. Cena's excellent. He's even better at making other people look excellent.

[EdgarTheSlouch]

On those criteria Andre definitely belongs in your "Undertaker tier" more than anyone, more than taker even.

 

I dont think that many people who are non-wrestling people know of him tbh. The only times that Andre has come up with any regularity with my non wrestling friends is among those who have seen The Princess Bride, and/or the episode of QI where he is mentioned. Bret Hart's Simpsons appearance (as it has been repeated many many times) seems to garner more recognition.

 

or....

 

 

[Merzbow]

The Andre OBEY shirts are pretty popular at the moment.

[Vamp]

Oh I'll grant that Cena has generally been more of a centrepiece than Taker. Whether you can say Taker's never been the man, despite his various championship runs and stuff, that sounds kinda wrong. But the point that Cena's been more of a centrepiece than Taker over the last few years, that can't be argued.

But, Taker has been way more over than him the last few years, and was more over than Cena's ever got for well over a decade before it. Despite WWE placing Cena as the centrepiece for as long as they have, the fact taker's stayed way more over than him right through it, that's gotta mean more in terms of his placing on any best of all time list.

Hasn't it?

 

I don't think Taker's been more over than Cena for the last few years. I suppose a couple of times he's been seen as more important heading into Mania by wrestling fans, but he hasn't been as over as Cena. Not in a mainstream or universal appeal anyway. Which is the main measurement of how over someone is. I'm also not sure that he was more over in the past than Cena has ever been. I mean, when Jeremy Clarkson was driving through Romania the kids didn't write the 'Undertaker' on his car did they? They wrote Cena. That's real drawing power. Get it? (Yes, alright, it's 'writing', fuck off). I know why you're saying it, he was a very popular supporting character in a very productive period but Cena's been the main character for quite a while now. The actual big time player. You could use American TV ratings to argue your case, but meh. I've never liked figures unless they're skating, and then you're on thin ice. I'd imagine Cena's at least as over as the Undertaker's ever been, and considering people are probably surprised to hear Taker's still wrestling but know Cena is I'd say people are paying more attention to my wigga from another monkey's auntie. Your only argument really is that 'Taker's been around a donkey or so longer than Cena, but then I can't see Cena not riding that donkey down pleasure beach too, and possibly a little further. He's young that buck.

 

The truth is Undertaker's never been the big fish Cena has, the problem Cena has in comparison with other big fish is people see it as him being in a smaller fish pond. Although, not being up on the business side of things so having no idea what their business in Bosnia is like, I'd imagine people need to rethink how they measure fish ponds because I'm presuming that, as an international entity, WWE's probably bigger than it was during the period of balding rockers and the period of everybody liking to finger their boses and shoving thing's up men's arses whether they liked it or not.

 

Which, while we're on the topic, is why Cena's not in the big threesome of wrestling greatness. He's simply not gay enough. Austin fingered and spent entire shows guzzling, The Rock was too horrified to even say vagina and mocked Lilian Garcia for being attracted to him, Hogan was constantly on his knees getting his daily supply of vitamins and when he needed a pick me up he'd start wriggling his wist and then flailing those arms around like a trooper, CENA@S STRAIGHT LOLZ!

 

And he's not Horace. Damn that dude could wrassle. Actually, since I'm on the topic of him again and forgot to ask last time, does anyone know where he is? I kinda miss him.

[Bellenda Carlisle]

On those criteria Andre definitely belongs in your "Undertaker tier" more than anyone, more than taker even.

 

I dont think that many people who are non-wrestling people know of him tbh. The only times that Andre has come up with any regularity with my non wrestling friends is among those who have seen The Princess Bride, and/or the episode of QI where he is mentioned. Bret Hart's Simpsons appearance (as it has been repeated many many times) seems to garner more recognition.

 

or....

 

 

 

Exactly what I meant, his image is iconic.

 

I asked my girlfriend who doesn't watch wrestling to name 5 wrestlers, she said stone cold Steve Austin, hulk hogan, the undertaker, the rock and "is there one called Vince?" The last one was a curveball I must say

[moofasa]

Asked my girlfriend for 5 wrestlers. First name out of her mouth Ricky Martin. This game is bollocks.

[King Pitcos]

She probably meant Justin Gabriel.

 

[Jacob Israel]

Just asked the missus to name the top five wrestlers of all time in order, she went with.....

 

1) Hulk Hogan

2) Goldust (I am as baffled by this one as you)

3) Batista

4) Rey Mysterio

5) John Cena

 

I think for non wrestling fans it is about who they have caught glimpses of over the years and those that are memorable. In her case, I think it is the bright colours. Says it all really. This is from a woman who believes that Santino is the best wrestler in the world and Heath Slater is the drizzling shits. So she is not completely clueless.

 

For me the top tier guys are Hogan/Rock/Austin/Cena/Andre.

 

All of those guys carried their respective eras and were huge worldwide draws. Cena has to be in there, just because business is in one of the down cycles does not diminish his importance or his drawing ability. I dread to think what worldwide attendances and merch sales etc would be without him. Andre has to be in there as he was a massive draw, but this was before the time of mass marketing/Cable TV/PPV etc, so people assume he wasnt as big a draw, but comparatively i think he is on the same level. Haystacks and Big Daddy cannot even get on the bottom tier as they drew decent in the UK but would never have drawn a fly around shit anywhere else.

[sivy]

i dont think The Rock is one of the greatest as in my eyes he was never at one stage the top guy. even when he was champ in 2000 i'd say triple h was seen as the main guy. as his fued with angle or jericho seemed to be more anticapted than the rock's wwe title match. plus the fact triple was on fire in 2000. on my list ive got rock down at 8 or 9.

 

my top 5 would be

hogan

austin

Triple h

Cena

Taker

[DJ Kris]

Appologies if someone has already mentioned it, but in all this top tier business I didn't notice Bruno Sammartino's name. He is often forgotten, which in it's self is an argument to downgrade him, but if we look on drawing power I believe Dave Meltzer had him right up there and possible over Hogan. Sammartino was the number 1 draw in the business in 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1974, 1975, 1976 and I believe these were all strong years. That said Hogan was the number 1 draw from 1984 to 1991 straight with 1984, 1985 and 1986 all setting new records for the most big gates in 1 year.

 

Steve Austin only had 2 years as the top draw (1998 & 2001), obviously these were very big years and he'd have made a ton of money, but The Rock was the big draw in 1999 and 2000, both setting new records for the most big gates in 1 year.

 

The Undertaker has never been the top draw, but he has been one of them.

 

I don't know how much this counts towards who's the greatest, but surely the best in the business is the person putting the most bums in seats?

[Sir Steve Redgrave]

Asked my girlfriend for 5 wrestlers. First name out of her mouth Ricky Martin. This game is bollocks.

There is a wrestler called Ricky Martin.

 

[Loki]

I wasn't around during the Sammartino era, obvs, but as I understand it the WWWF in those days was a super-regional as opposed to the worldwide behemoth it became under Hogan. So although Sammartino headlined for years, he was drawing houses in the New York area, as opposed to all over the world.

 

That's the gist of it, I think.

[King Pitcos]

Also, wrestling in those days was so boring that nobody from that era should count.

[Loligan]

Yeah I think the general feeling is that Bruno was super over due to the massive population in the area's where he was a draw. But not only did they have millions more people but a shitload of them were Italian.

 

Move anywhere else in the country however and they either didnt know him or didnt like him because his style was so different.

 

He cant even be compared to a Ric Flair who drew all over the country, let alone Steve Austin who drew internationally.

[d-d-d-dAz]

 

Is the post of the year thread still about, because that's going right in there. I bloody love you Pits.