UFC 141:Lesnar vs Overeem Discussion Thread

[Your Fight Site]

I've called the last four UFC main events now, so opened an account on a betting site and used my

[Loligan]

I was really sad for Lesnar losing like that. I had a feeling if he lost he would be done. The impact the guy had on the sport in the 4 years he was associated with it is unreal. He should feel proud.

[David]

I'm glad some people are coming round to the idea that Lesnar hasn't been at 100% for a couple of years now. I said this about his loss to Velaquez and people were right pissy about it. It's clear Lesnar just can't compete to the level he did when he first started beating on good fighter in UFC.

Lesnar got handled by the two real quality opponents he's faced. He's simply not good enough, and doesn't have the heart for it.

 

The only thing he really accomplished was drawing WWE eyeballs to the sport.

 

I agree with the folk that said Lesnar didn't look like the same man who was smashing the face of Frank Mir in, a couple of years ago. If his heart was in it I think he would have given a better account of himself (as I think Reem is well overrated and Brock has fought and beaten better).

Are you serious?

 

The reason he didn't look like the same fighter who beat Frank Mir is because he wasn't fighting Frank Mir. He was fighting a guy who is as technically gifted striking-wise and hard hitting as any heavyweight MMA fighter out there. In the build-up show I heard Marty Morgan say that Brock had faced Shane Carwin who hits harder than Overeem, so he would know what to expect. I hope he didn't actually have Lesnar believing that in the build-up to that fight. Carwin is a wild-swinging slugger, whilst Overeem is a fucking K-1 champion.

 

His one attempt at a takedown was shambolic. After that he had the same look on his face that he did when Velasquez got back up from one of his takedowns in their fight. The guy doesn't have it. WWE is the place for him. At least the Undertaker won't hit back.

 

I'm sure it wasn't a factor and more down to Reems power but I can't help but wonder if Brock's body wasn't 100%, or at least not what it used to be after surgery. Reem looked like he targeted it and did some damage there.

Even at 100%, if you're going to stand in front of someone like Overeem and try to defend his kicks you're going to get fucked up.

 

Fitch getting sparked in 12 seconds was maybe the most shocking KO of the year for me. Never would have called that. The 170 division has really been shook up the last couple of months between GSP getting shelved and now Fitch getting knocked out of contention in such convincing fashion. I'd like to see Hendricks vs Koscheck next. Give Mike Pierce someone else. Like Rick Story.

Fitch got caught cold with a great shot. It happens, man. As for his title shot, if we're serious Dana White wasn't giving him one anyway. All that Fitch can hope for is that by the time he strings together another 100-200 wins St-Pierre will have retired or moved weight class.

 

Diaz/Cerrone was amazing. That's a late FOTY contender easy for me. I loved everything about it. Thought the 30-27's were a bit off, I deffo had Cowboy winning round 2 but I thought the right man won in the end so no big deal.

The only problem with the result of this fight is that Diaz will do what he did the last time went on a "run" at 155lbs. He'll lose to the top guys in the division. He simply can't beat the likes of Gray Maynard and Clay Guida, so he'll have virtually no chance against Ben Henderson or Frank Edgar.

 

At least Cerrone would have offered something new, but that's the way it goes I guess.

[ColinBollocks]

I'm glad some people are coming round to the idea that Lesnar hasn't been at 100% for a couple of years now. I said this about his loss to Velaquez and people were right pissy about it. It's clear Lesnar just can't compete to the level he did when he first started beating on good fighter in UFC.

Lesnar got handled by the two real quality opponents he's faced. He's simply not good enough, and doesn't have the heart for it.

 

The only thing he really accomplished was drawing WWE eyeballs to the sport.

Also worth noting that he faced those opponents whilst suffering from the disease that has helped put an end to his career.

 

You make it sound like Lesnar was a bum, which is shite. Again, he didn't have easy fights and has lost two on the bounce during a period where his health and life have been effected, as well as his ability to train/improve for MMA. You compare how he overcame Carwin to the way he folded up and waited for the ref to stop the fight, completely different levels of desire and heart.

 

I agree with the folk that said Lesnar didn't look like the same man who was smashing the face of Frank Mir in, a couple of years ago. If his heart was in it I think he would have given a better account of himself (as I think Reem is well overrated and Brock has fought and beaten better).

Are you serious?

 

The reason he didn't look like the same fighter who beat Frank Mir is because he wasn't fighting Frank Mir. He was fighting a guy who is as technically gifted striking-wise and hard hitting as any heavyweight MMA fighter out there. In the build-up show I heard Marty Morgan say that Brock had faced Shane Carwin who hits harder than Overeem, so he would know what to expect. I hope he didn't actually have Lesnar believing that in the build-up to that fight. Carwin is a wild-swinging slugger, whilst Overeem is a fucking K-1 champion.

 

His one attempt at a takedown was shambolic. After that he had the same look on his face that he did when Velasquez got back up from one of his takedowns in their fight. The guy doesn't have it. WWE is the place for him. At least the Undertaker won't hit back.

The guy doesn't have it anymore, Lesnar realised this and retired. Mir is a far superior wrestler (as was Carwin and Couture) than Overeem and Brock dominated on the ground in all those fights, there are rumours going around (Meltzer) that Lesnar knew he wasn't up to it and as such didn't bother with the take downs, as he knew his explosiveness was gone.

[wandshogun09]

Fitch getting sparked in 12 seconds was maybe the most shocking KO of the year for me. Never would have called that. The 170 division has really been shook up the last couple of months between GSP getting shelved and now Fitch getting knocked out of contention in such convincing fashion. I'd like to see Hendricks vs Koscheck next. Give Mike Pierce someone else. Like Rick Story.

Fitch got caught cold with a great shot. It happens, man. As for his title shot, if we're serious Dana White wasn't giving him one anyway. All that Fitch can hope for is that by the time he strings together another 100-200 wins St-Pierre will have retired or moved weight class.

 

Yeah it's always a possibility but no less of a shock. No-one would have expected that.

 

As for the title shot, we've both said before that Fitch earned his shot a long time ago but like you say it wasn't likely he was getting one anytime soon.

 

Really though, right now was probably his best chance if he beat Hendricks. GSP is looking at a late 2012 return if not later. That leaves the winner of Diaz/Condit with not that many obvious options. Fitch and the winner of Ellenberger/Sanchez would be the front runners. So as slim a chance as him getting a shot is, I think the timing was better for him with GSP on the shelf.

 

It doesn't matter now anyway but it's a terrible break for Fitch.

 

The only problem with the result of this fight is that Diaz will do what he did the last time went on a "run" at 155lbs. He'll lose to the top guys in the division. He simply can't beat the likes of Gray Maynard and Clay Guida, so he'll have virtually no chance against Ben Henderson or Frank Edgar.

 

At least Cerrone would have offered something new, but that's the way it goes I guess.

 

I think Nate's gonna suffer from the same problems as his brother eventually will. Having a wrestling weakness in a wrestler heavy division. Just like Nick will eventually have a GSP, Fitch, Koscheck to deal with. Nate will look great until he runs into the Edgar's, Maynard's and Ben Henderson's at 155.

 

Nate's a real good fighter, and I think he's really improved the last year or so but really good wrestlers will be able to take away the effectiveness of his boxing and as long as they don't get careless in his guard they will beat him more often than not. Same with Nick imo.

[Mr. Seven]

I can't stand the guy as I find him terribly boring but why is Fitch universally hated? Meltzer said that there were "plenty of celebrations" backstage following his KO.

[METAL ON METAL]

Quite harsh on Lesnar there, David. Fair enough you may not like him, but no one can deny he has faced the absolute best head-on from the start (well bar his first fight) and didn't have the luxury of having gimmie-fights. Hell, he was fighting a top level former UFC champion in Frank Mir in his second ever fight, he fought Randy Couture in only his fourth ever fight! Look at his opponents: Frank Mir, Heath Herring, Randy Couture, Shane Carwin, Cain Velasquez, Alistair Overeem.

 

Thats top competition and for the most part, Lesnar gave great showings of himself. Thats arguably a higher test of fighters than Fedor has had in his whole career and all whilst twice fighting a life-threatening condition.

 

Like him or not, you've got to be retarded not to think he "doesn't have it".

[wandshogun09]

 

Gotta say I agree with Blackson on Brock.

 

He gave it a shot, came up short in the end but he still did some impressive things in his short MMA career. Dominated and ultimately retired Heath Herring (a veteran of how many...40 odd fights maybe?), in only his 4th pro fight he finished Randy Couture, put Frank Mir on his back (probably the most dangerous HW off his back in MMA) and smashed him to a swollen and bloody pulp.

 

And to anyone questioning his heart, I don't buy it. For anyone to come back from the battering Shane Carwin put on him to come back and win suggests to me he has balls the size of Dolly Parton's knockers. Yeah part of the comeback was Carwin gassing but still, Brock had to get up and get it done.

[METAL ON METAL]

I can't stand the guy as I find him terribly boring but why is Fitch universally hated? Meltzer said that there were "plenty of celebrations" backstage following his KO.

 

Awful to watch, slags off MMA fans at any opportunity ("you are not real fans if you don't like me"), he trains at AKA, he's taught by Dave 'twat-face' Camarillo, hasn't even been close to finishing a fight in over 4 years, has a smug face.

 

Take you're pick.

[David]

You make it sound like Lesnar was a bum, which is shite.

He wasn't a bum, but he was a guy with one pro MMA fight under his belt when he came into the UFC. He was in way above his head, and simply couldn't compete with the guys at the very top of the division, it's as simple as that.

 

He deserves credit for hanging with the likes of Mir, Carwin & even an aged Couture.

 

You compare how he overcame Carwin to the way he folded up and waited for the ref to stop the fight, completely different levels of desire and heart.

At the end of the 1st frame of their fight Carwin was roughly connecting with one out of every three strikes he was throwing at Lesnar. He didn't fold up, and the referee didn't stop the fight, because he wasn't being hit as much as it may have appeared.

 

Carwin was fucked after that, a mixture of gassing out and having bronchitis at the time.

 

He folded up last night because he got hit by a shinshot to the liver by a K-1 champion. It had fuck all to do with heart or desire. He showed his inability to compete before that happened when he was basically doing everything he could to keep Overeem away from him. He couldn't take the guy down, so he couldn't win the fight. Same as what happened against Velasquez.

 

The guy doesn't have it anymore, Lesnar realised this and retired. Mir is a far superior wrestler (as was Carwin and Couture) than Overeem and Brock dominated on the ground in all those fights, there are rumours going around (Meltzer) that Lesnar knew he wasn't up to it and as such didn't bother with the take downs, as he knew his explosiveness was gone.

Fuck ~DA MELTZ~ and his rumours. If Lesnar had won we wouldn't be hearing anything about his illness. Before the fight he was 100%, and had been cleared by his doctors & the athletic commission to fight. That's good enough for me.

 

If he had fought Frank Mir tonight he would probably have shown the heart & desire needed to win. Overeem, much like Velasquez, and much like Dos Santos would have been, are simply too good for Lesnar. He got outclassed.

 

Quite harsh on Lesnar there, David. Fair enough you may not like him, but no one can deny he has faced the absolute best head-on from the start (well bar his first fight) and didn't have the luxury of having gimmie-fights. Hell, he was fighting a top level former UFC champion in Frank Mir in his second ever fight, he fought Randy Couture in only his fourth ever fight! Look at his opponents: Frank Mir, Heath Herring, Randy Couture, Shane Carwin, Cain Velasquez, Alistair Overeem.

Come on. If you put Mir, Couture, Carwin or Herring in there with any of the top three guys in that division they all lose more times than not. I'm not saying Lesnar wasn't a decent heavyweight, but he wasn't as good as the UFC wanted all of the PPV-buying schmucks to believe he was. He isn't some super-level wrestler (which I've said before), and his striking is non-existent.

 

He had heaps of athletic ability and managed to reach a level that was very impressive for someone in the sport for so little an amount of time. I'll give him all the credit in the world for that. He simply wasn't top class though.

 

Like him or not, you've got to be retarded not to think he "doesn't have it".

I don't dislike him, my only problem was ever with him getting fast-tracked to the title because of his PPV selling powers. I always said that he'd get found out eventually, and it happened.

 

He'll go down in history as a good heavyweight fighter, but he's not a great.

[John Galt]

Are we serious about this boohooing at Lesnar's retirement? He's beaten no one particularly good - his best was 45 year old Randy Couture; or are we suddenly pretending Carwin is a legit contender? - and every loss has been severe and hilarious. I'm sure he contributed a lot to the viewership but based on what I've seen at bars and at shows themselves, Lesnar's fans are Just Bleed bellends who are bad for the sport and will probably drop off now he's given in. It's a shame he's gone so soon but baseless hype can't go on forever: couldn't do football, couldn't do MMA, back to WWE surely? Also, I really enjoyed Overeem just going right onto JDS and giving Lesnar no respect. He should have reall rubbed it in like Lesnar did with Mir.

 

As someone who began watching the sport when it was first on Sky Sports, I never thought there would ever be a time where I'd be looking forward to the UFC heavyweight division but with guys like Velasquez, JDS and The Reem being a gateway for the Strikeforce guys to move over, it's quickly becoming one of my favourites.

[wandshogun09]

Man, looking at them gifs again it's even more brutal. Everything hit liver. 2 massive knees right on the liver and then the body kick.

[David]

As someone who began watching the sport when it was first on Sky Sports, I never thought there would ever be a time where I'd be looking forward to the UFC heavyweight division but with guys like Velasquez, JDS and The Reem beng a gateway for the Strikeforce guys to move over, it's quickly becoming one of my favourites.

Especially if Josh Barnett wins the Strikeforce Grand Prix. Throw him into the mix and things get even better.

[wandshogun09]

Are we serious about this boohooing at Lesnar's retirement? He's beaten no one particularly good - his best was 45 year old Randy Couture; or are we suddenly pretending Carwin is a legit contender? - and every loss has been severe and hilarious. I'm sure he contributed a lot to the viewership but based on what I've seen at bars and at shows themselves, Lesnar's fans are Just Bleed bellends who are bad for the sport and will probably drop off now he's given in. It's a shame he's gone so soon but baseless hype can't go on forever: couldn't do football, couldn't do MMA, back to WWE surely? Also, I really enjoyed Overeem just going right onto JDS and giving Lesnar no respect. He should have reall rubbed it in like Lesnar did with Mir.

 

As someone who began watching the sport when it was first on Sky Sports, I never thought there would ever be a time where I'd be looking forward to the UFC heavyweight division but with guys like Velasquez, JDS and The Reem beng a gateway for the Strikeforce guys to move over, it's quickly becoming one of my favourites.

 

Carwin was a legit contender when Brock fought him. It's easy to look back now and say he was shit after a couple of losses but at that time no-one was saying that. He's still a fucking dangerous opponent for most guys.

 

No-one's boohooing, but I just don't see why people feel the need to bash him or discredit every win he's had. It was the same with Fedor. I even remember people bashing Dan Henderson something rotten online after he lost to Shields. Saying he's old, he should hang 'em up. Look at him now. Sure, Brock was never the best fighter. He got by on one skill really and his marketability got him chances he didn't earn. He still took the biggest, toughest fights that were available to him at the time. That's all people are saying I think.

 

Agreed 100% on the last bit. Heavyweight is more exciting than it's ever been.

[David]

Sure, Brock was never the best fighter. He got by on one skill really and his marketability got him chances he didn't earn. He still took the biggest, toughest fights that were available to him at the time. That's all people are saying I think.

No, the points I've been arguing against are those that Lesnar wasn't 100% in his last fight, that he didn't look the same guy he did against Mir and so forth.

 

Excuses.

 

He lost the fight for the same reason he lost to Velasquez. He was fighting a guy who was much better than him. Simple as that.