Amy Winehouse dead

[BiffingtonClyro]

I was in the midst of what was (for me) a terribly painful break-up. Some of my worried friends dragged me out and encouraged me to drown away my sorrows with drink, to which I agreed. I was there in a bar getting slaughtered to ease my pain, and the woman in question waltzed in happy as Larry and started talking to / flirting with all my friends. I was so angry, that I needed to release some of my tension somehow. I could never ever lay a harmful finger on a woman, and it would have been unfair of me to attack any of the other patrons in the pub, but I was so mad that it had to be done to release a portion of my anger / agony at the situation.

 

I was swiftly jumped on by the bouncers, roughed up and chucked out. At which point I headed to the bridge to jump off. Someone had died jumping off the bridge previously so I was pretty confident of my chances at succeeding with the suicide. My best friend chased me town, tackled me, attempted to mop up my face with a bandanna and forcibly dragged me to his house and locked me in. I thanked him in the morning.

 

It

[Pinc]

Everyone I know who's recovered from a bout of severe depression, or overcome (or at least contained) an addiction has said that at some point they make a personal decision to change course and fight. If they are to be applauded for doing so, why is it so wrong to point out that Amy Winehouse never did so, despite many trips to rehab and plenty of effort from friends and family, and that therefore she ultimately shoulders the responsibility for that?

Even leaving aside the public scrutiny Amy Winehouse was put under throughout her addiction, which I assume the people you know who've recovered from depression or addiction didn't have to deal with, there may have been genetic and environmental factors beyond her control that exacerbated her vulnerability to addiction and made recovery all the less achievable. In fact it now appears evident that there were.

 

Though it is an intuitive notion, the idea that all people are equally able to make the kind of change you're alluding to is reductionist and demonstrably wrong. No two addicts are the same and the idea that praise and blame should be apportioned in equal measure to all addicts depending on their recovery or lack thereof is myopic.

[Loki]

Though it is an intuitive notion, the idea that all people are equally able to make the kind of change you're alluding to is reductionist and demonstrably wrong. No two addicts are the same and the idea that praise and blame should be apportioned in equal measure to all addicts depending on their recovery or lack thereof is myopic.

 

Go on then!

[David]

As others have pointed out, on a day when nearly a hundred people lost their lives through no fault of their own, it's hard to feel a huge amount of sympathy for a rich drug addict. That's not being callous, it's just having some perspective.

Well said lad.

 

Someone on Facebook posted the following statement, which rings true to a certain degree;

 

You know what makes me sick, most of the people who liked Amy Winehouse would never have looked at a homeless drunk on the street twice! She arrives on stage in a state, cant walk or sing, "oh the poor troubled girl"....alcoholic on the street stumbles and falls, "thats disgraceful, look at the state of him"...Society eh? Its the truth, someones got to say it!

[DJ Kris]

Someone on Facebook posted the following statement, which rings true to a certain degree;

You know what makes me sick, most of the people who liked Amy Winehouse would never have looked at a homeless drunk on the street twice! She arrives on stage in a state, cant walk or sing, "oh the poor troubled girl"....alcoholic on the street stumbles and falls, "thats disgraceful, look at the state of him"...Society eh? Its the truth, someones got to say it!

but then people on Facebook are known for saying silly things. I feel embarrassed reading some of the stuff my friends come out with, especially the ones relating to soldiers. See here's the thing that makes the 2 different. There are people who feel a connection to Winehouse through her music so regardless of what else is going on they are bound to care more about her than some guy on the street they know nothing about and to be honest, I don't actually know anyone who has/would take a different view of a drunk on the street to Winehouse incapable on stage.

[stewdogg]

Are the media just as big a factor in her death as the drugs/alcohol? They (the media) were quick to jump all over her when she was down, and further heighten her problems, and make her feel worse about herself.

 

Do the media in this country need a good kick up the backside?

[WildSybianRider]

Loki's amazing insights on mental health return. Sooner or later you will get your head 'round the fact that - just like some people beat cancer and others don't - some people overcome addiction or depression or other mental disorders and others don't. Until that day stfu with your sub-tabloid nonsense.

[Pinc]

Though it is an intuitive notion, the idea that all people are equally able to make the kind of change you're alluding to is reductionist and demonstrably wrong. No two addicts are the same and the idea that praise and blame should be apportioned in equal measure to all addicts depending on their recovery or lack thereof is myopic.

Go on then!

The claim isn't a controversial one among neuroscientists and behavioural geneticists, but fair enough.

 

Here's an article titled 'Genetic influences on impulsivity, risk taking, stress responsivity and vulnerability to drug abuse and addiction' published in the November 2005 edition of Nature Neuroscience which concludes that 'Addiction is a complex disorder with interacting factors, including environmental factors, drug-induced neurobiological changes, comorbidity, personality traits and stress responsivity. Clearly, multiple genetic variants that affect these factors may work in concert to affect vulnerability and severity of addiction. As a concrete example, a functional SNP in the OPRM1 gene (A118G) influences the

[Glen Quagmire]

Sorry but are you actually arguing against the definition of tragedy? Not mine but that of a dictionary whose very existence is to define what words mean.

 

Yo said Winehouses death wasn't a tragedy compared to other events when it quite clearly is.

 

As is Bin Ladens to his family and followers i'm sure.

To describe Amy Whinehouse's death as a 'tragedy' cheapens the meaning of the word, and should be reserved for situations where it is deserved. A bit like calling some soccer players 'heros' for scoring a goal when real heros are those who achieve tasks above and beyond a call of duty e.g. a fireman rescuing an unconscious person from a building on fire, or a man who fights off a mugger trying to rob from a single woman whom the man doesn't even know her name. Although I'm sure you can probably find something somewhere to find 'hero' to define someone kicking a ball about.

 

Also, dictionaries are excellent tools, but they are not infallible. At the very least, there is no one authoritative dictionary above all others. And also the meaning of some words expressed in everyday language can have different meanings in different places, for example to accuse someone of being 'ignorant' where I live has a different meaning to what is normally assumed in Britain.

[DJ Kris]

To describe Amy Whinehouse's death as a 'tragedy' cheapens the meaning of the word, and should be reserved for situations where it is deserved. A bit like calling some soccer players 'heros' for scoring a goal when real heros are those who achieve tasks above and beyond a call of duty e.g. a fireman rescuing an unconscious person from a building on fire, or a man who fights off a mugger trying to rob from a single woman whom the man doesn't even know her name. Although I'm sure you can probably find something somewhere to find 'hero' to define someone kicking a ball about.

 

Also, dictionaries are excellent tools, but they are not infallible. At the very least, there is no one authoritative dictionary above all others. And also the meaning of some words expressed in everyday language can have different meanings in different places, for example to accuse someone of being 'ignorant' where I live has a different meaning to what is normally assumed in Britain.

[The Miz]

Feeling sorry for her Parents. They visited her Flat earlier, the media circus were swarming.

[Glen Quagmire]

Personally I would have thought that someone with your stated history (if they had some empathy and understanding) would want to use this debate to help highlight the severity, the seriousness and the despair of mental illness and addiction, rather than taking the path of judgemental moralising and belittling dismissal.

And what gives you the right to make assumptions that just because I have had problems with mental health in the past (in fact I still do to this day at times) and also with relations who have battled mental health problems that I should automatically think along your line of thinking? It's that sort of thinking that once they heard Oslo was bombed last week most people went "Al-Qaeda" without any proof.

 

The kind of "pull yourself together and snap out of it" attitude normally only displayed by the genuinely ignorant. Maybe because you overcame your obstacles, you don't understand how hard it can be for other people to do the same?

I actually scorn people who use the "pull yourself together" attitude to mental health. You don't know what obstacles I've overcame or I'm still trying to, so again please don't presume. All I will say about my experiences is that it is often very hard to try and think along the lines of what people who have poor mental health are thinking about themselves and that during 'better' times the same people can struggle to remember what was going through their minds in such a state. It's difficult for strangers to understand, even professionals, because unlike physical ailments they are visible or can be tested in most cases and go through standard procedures. Mental health is more difficult, and is decades behind in understanding compared to physical health. It also doesn't help that treating mental health problems isn't 'sexy'.

 

You talk about the choices that Winehouse made, as if the choices of a mentally ill addict are just as rational as those of a mentally healthy person. Making terrible self-destructive choices is a condition of the illness, and as you obviously know this due to your history, castigating Winehouse for her life choices is very strange behaviour.

I've already spoke about trying to make presumptions of my own past so I'll leave that aside, but one thing I do understand from experience is that unless one is in such a state where they are candidates for being sectioned, being mentally ill doesn't stop most sufferers from being able to make at least some conscious decisions, and one of them should be to seek help in overcoming your problems but realising that you need to try and put the effort into it yourself or it will simply not work. If I castigate Amy Winehouse on this, it is that she refused to break with the people who were causing her to be addicted - if you refuse to leave the circle, in the end it will eat you up and spit you out.

[Glen Quagmire]

You're talking as if there's only one valid approach or opinion on mental health, where anything that someone does who's depressed is excusable by their illness and where they have no control over their actions. Everyone I know who's recovered from a bout of severe depression, or overcome (or at least contained) an addiction has said that at some point they make a personal decision to change course and fight. If they are to be applauded for doing so, why is it so wrong to point out that Amy Winehouse never did so, despite many trips to rehab and plenty of effort from friends and family, and that therefore she ultimately shoulders the responsibility for that?

 

As others have pointed out, on a day when nearly a hundred people lost their lives through no fault of their own, it's hard to feel a huge amount of sympathy for a rich drug addict. That's not being callous, it's just having some perspective.

For fucks sake Loki, don't attempt to bring any concise reasoning into this thread!

[Glen Quagmire]

You are aware that these two events are not in anyway linked? Honestly, when these things happen I really don't know why people feel the need to draw comparisons as if one event can somehow cancel out another.

I'm not even sure what you mean by this?

 

I assume you're aware of plays and stories that might be described as a tragedy? Here's a dictionary definition of that:...<snip>

How's life in fantasy land, Kris? Oh and when will we see Zac Ryder in your signature?

 

No, you didn't say "Death is a competition" however you did turn it into a competition my drawing comparisons as a way to show that her death didn't hold up to another all while misunderstanding the definition of the word tragedy. You may feel the word is too strong for the circumstances, but it was certainly used in the correct context.

I will repeat what I said earlier, to make out that Amy Winehouse's death is a tragedy, then so to was Osama Bin Laden's.

[Glen Quagmire]

Explain then...

 

Feeling sorry for her Parents. They visited her Flat earlier, the media circus were swarming.

In general, I strongly dislike the media in Britain. Whatever the circumstances of her dying, they should be left in peace to grieve.