Women's Wrestling: A Critique

[PowerButchi]

Bull Nakano is fit now she's a small golfer.

[Carbomb]

Bull Nakano is fit now she's a small golfer.

 

She is, as well. Saw a picture of her a while back, but there are upsettingly few pictures of her these days.

 

To be honest, take the make-up, snarl and insane hair away, and she wasn't bad even when she was big.

[PowerButchi]

- look at her now. One for Vintage Bintage.

[The King Of Swing]

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure she was only as big as she was at her "peak" because it was expected of her when she started main eventing All Japan Women's in the late 80's.

 

Still though dropping the weight like she did is fucking impressive.

[Carbomb]

- look at her now. One for Vintage Bintage.

 

Definitely. But according to that video, her weight-loss training regimen was partly designed for her by her pro Muay Thai boxer husband.

 

The fruit is denied

[Taylorslade]

Personally, I don't think Mickie James has had a good match since she stopped wrestling in them little skirts and lingerie with her beef curtains almost hanging out, in the first year of her WWE days.

 

 

To echo what Carbomb and Ian have already said, as I agree with all of it. I would like to put it across a different way, regarding one of the main things that I've seen happen ;

It's kind of similar to when an aging fighter comes out of retirement to fight a top young fighter in his prime, in a fight where most people expect the older underdog to recieve a savage beating. Then when fight night arrives, and the old fighter does reasonably well, but not much, if any, work than the young favourite. But because the viewers or judges, in their mind's eye, had the old fox KO'd and bashed up by now, that they magnify what the veteran is doing, in terms of scoring. Winning, just because he wasn't losing. Example, see Sugar Ray Leonard Vs Marvin Hagler of 1987.

 

I believe that is the same mentality that some viewers evaluate womens matches. Because if you haven't seen the geniunely great AJW matches already mentioned in the thread, then it's easy to expect that the all-woman match you are about to see will be the usual clumsy bollocks that you are used to. Then when the match has some decent moments in it and/or is tidy, then it's easy to get carried away.

 

I've no real problems or issues against women's wrestling, but it's not my kind of thing at all, but I do have a problem when die-hard fans of it have a right go at you and make you out to be a tasteless and ignorant smark who wouldn't know a great match from a box of matches. I'm not saying anyone on here has done that to me, they haven't, but it has happened elsewhere a few times, and only because I criticised a certain woman's match, I wasn't nasty about it, just said my honest opinion.

[Michael_3165]

All I can add that hasn't been said...

 

I find myseld spending time that I've actually bothered watchin women's matches with a voice in my head screamin "fuckin smack the bitch HARD!!" If they can't punch of forearm properly DONT DO IT! It looks awful and puts me off

[theaddicane]

I've actually bothered watchin women's matches with a voice in my head screamin "fuckin smack the bitch HARD!!"

 

You sound like you have a mental problem there.

 

I don't watch women's wrestling for the same reason I don't watch shit men's wrestling: It's shit. There's the odd good thing in it that I've watched and been impressed with, but most of it is a lower-grade product with some workers being lauded because they delivered a fairly decent match.

 

Sites like Ringbelles are akin to the patronising office sexism of the 80s, where Cindy would get a reassuring smack on the arse because she used a photocopier. Then you get some of the fans who act like they would never have a wank over a Beautiful People match because they "respect them too much as workers". It's a pretty fucking dire fanbase from what I've seen.

 

So, personally, I don't grade women's wrestling on an unfair curve. I put it on the same curve as all wrestling because I'm not a patronising sexist, and undeniably the vast majority of the work is far below the standard of men's wrestling.

 

Why? Because generally women are less athletic which limits what they can do in the ring in a physical sense, and because of social reasons which don't influence women to move into wrestling commonly so there's a smaller talent pool and you get less decent workers out of it. And it's rarely promoted right as the mainstream audience aren't interested due to the prior conditioning mentioned.

 

Female workers in the UK are the worst, too. Sweet Saraya and all that are hardly "legends", they're fucking shit.

[aosist]

To me, if there's a uniqueness of character, I can forgive the wrestling quality not quite being up to scratch. Percy Watson's an example. By all accounts very green when he was on NXT, but because he was so wacky and so different and so my cup of tea, I could forgive the lack of technique and enjoy his stuff. Zack Ryder isn't an amazing wrestler, but because his character appeals to me so much, I enjoy his matches more than those between better workers. Those characters appeal to me, so I give them leeway.

 

Some people just respond to female characters. Nothing wrong with that. Be aware of the bias from sites like Diva Dirt and Ringbelles (a site I very much enjoy, by the way) but don't vilify them for it. I'm equally biased towards Percy Watson, Zack Ryder or anyone wearing a mask in CHIKARA. We all give some extra forgiveness to acts with feel an emotional connection to.

[knightmare]

after being involved in womans wrestling for about 20 years i personally feel its the best its ever been with some great talent around the globe. Where the fellahs have become flip floppy gymnast the woman still get stuck in. I have been involved in a few wrestling documentaries over the years and the tv crews always believe the girls stuff over the fellahs. Imo two of the most believable UK documentaries made were by women "Battling Belles" by Klondyke Kate and" Muscles and Mascara"by Sweet Saraya.

 

Of course there is some shit out there but there is a hell of a lot of fellahs who should not be near a wrestling ring also.

[Vito]

It's interesting that Dave Meltzer has awarded five star ratings to at least eight womens matches over he years but only four WWF/WWE matches have ever earned a full five stars.

[AJS269]

I think this thread strikes me a bit like the Staniforth one, there is an element of calling out a known ranter (in this case either myself or SBA).

I would say this, as some people have pointed out, people do have a bias to certain things,its the same as enjoying Indy-Style wrestling or Puroresu, which many people on here think are shite . What annoys me is this constant assumption that its a sexual thing, I can't speak for anyone else, but its not the case with me (wonder how much eye rolling that comments gonna get). Where did all this Workrate Pervert Bullshite come from anyway, what is wrong with wanting to watch Wrestlers, you know, wrestle?

Also I think its a bit hypocritical to say all girls are shite at wrestling then go on about how fans of womens wrestling are sexist and give women a pass just cause they are women. I would never say women wrestlers are the greatest in the world but I do think companys like Shimmer are enjoyable.

Also I would love to see what would happen if you were to tell Saraya she's shite to her face, lol.

[RepoMan]

after being involved in womans wrestling for about 20 years i personally feel its the best its ever been with some great talent around the globe. Where the fellahs have become flip floppy gymnast the woman still get stuck in. I have been involved in a few wrestling documentaries over the years and the tv crews always believe the girls stuff over the fellahs. Imo two of the most believable UK documentaries made were by women "Battling Belles" by Klondyke Kate and" Muscles and Mascara"by Sweet Saraya.

 

Of course there is some shit out there but there is a hell of a lot of fellahs who should not be near a wrestling ring also.

Do you feel that women's wrestling is viewed and received differently to mens?

 

I mean, is a 'good' women's match as good as a 'good' men's one? Or just about as good as a slightly crrap men's one, but because it's women, people are more impressed.

[King Pitcos]

To me, if there's a uniqueness of character, I can forgive the wrestling quality not quite being up to scratch. Percy Watson's an example. By all accounts very green when he was on NXT, but because he was so wacky and so different and so my cup of tea, I could forgive the lack of technique and enjoy his stuff. Zack Ryder isn't an amazing wrestler, but because his character appeals to me so much, I enjoy his matches more than those between better workers. Those characters appeal to me, so I give them leeway.

 

Some people just respond to female characters. Nothing wrong with that. Be aware of the bias from sites like Diva Dirt and Ringbelles (a site I very much enjoy, by the way) but don't vilify them for it. I'm equally biased towards Percy Watson, Zack Ryder or anyone wearing a mask in CHIKARA. We all give some extra forgiveness to acts with feel an emotional connection to.

This is all true, apart from the "nothing wrong with that" and "don't vilify them for it" bit. It's really just the same as any Internet Wrestling bandwagon, same as people who spunk over Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, Chris Jericho, everyone in ROH etc. Well it's the same as those things except a lot more rapey. I was going to defend it by saying it's more genuine as well, since I assumed people who love the women's wrestling aren't just following what Da Meltz has told them to like. But if Vito's post about the snowflakes is accurate and the SHIMMER type stuff is highly spoken of in The Observer and equivalents, then I can't even say that.

 

I mean, is a 'good' women's match as good as a 'good' men's one? Or just about as good as a slightly crrap men's one, but because it's women, people are more impressed.

I don't think expectations should be the same, largely because of card placement. It's very rare that you'll see a women's match as the main event in a proper wrestling promotion -- apart from mixed tags, I can only think of maybe two or three in WWE history. One was a novelty match that gave megaheel manager Stephanie McMahon the Women's title (vs Jacqueline), and one was her defending the title against Lita with Rock as a special ref. I might have misremembered details of those, and they might not have actually been the main events of the shows they were on. The other is the Lita vs Trish Raw main event, which was a special case of a huge feud between the two biggest female wrestlers ever. And it was warranted because although they were far crapper than the usual main event crew, within their niche they were superb. Women's wrestling is like cruiserweight wrestling, it's not as good as the proper stuff, but it can seem as good if the circumstances are right or if you're on the bandwagon. If you're on the bandwagon and mental, you can even be convinced that it's better than the proper stuff.

 

Anyway, this is the female talent I'd employ if I were running a wrestling company and had me pick:

 

Maryse

Sunny (MILF manager type)

Rebecca Knox (fit manager)

Layla

Beth Phoenix

Velvet Sky

Kelly Kelly (even though she is about 15 times more incompetent than The Great Khali)

Winter (on a trial basis - I'd sack her if she was shit and hire Maria)

[Vito]

For me wrestling is about passion and the best matches I've ever seen were the ones where the performers convince me that winnng the match is the most important thing in the world. The problem with a lot of womens matches, especially on WWE and TNA programming, is that matches lack the fire and intensity to make me believe that what I'm seeing is real. If I was fighting somebody I hated I wouldn't be throwing weak forearms or trying to pin them with a schoolboy, heels who are about to get their comeuppance should be looking for cheap victories, faces should be looking to deliver the deserved beating that the audience wants to see.

 

I guess it really comes down to fundamentals and understanding what the business is about, does anyone these days know why wrestlers even run the ropes? Running ropes is about momentum and hitting your opponent after a big run up, it's basic cartoon logic, Popeye will only punch Bluto over the horizon after he's spun his arm around like a helicopters rotorblades, so if running the ropes is about hitting your opponent harder and knocking them down why do we see wrestlers throwing lame clotheslines or forearms after doing it? If you're not going to use the ropes for their intended purpose then why even bother to use them?