Peter Staniforth

[dangerously420]

On a slightly loosely related question about Peter and PTW. I was going to ask what remix version of Lady Gagas song Peter uses? Trying to find it on youtube but to no avail.

[Carbomb]

I'm not specifically talking about PTW, but surely while 1 shit company on it's own can put off 100/200 people, the shit across the country collectively can do much more damage?

 

Not if the quality's good enough to shine through at the top.

There's awful comedy nights, awful clubs, awful raves, awful gigs, there's loads of utter shite in any entertainment industry. But for some reason, despite dire football and 20 fans turning up and other shite in the very bottom leagues, the premier league does ok, comedy does ok, raves do ok, the problem isn't the shite at the bottom, it's the lack of anything amazing at the top.

And all the peter staniforths in the country wouldn't have made a lick of difference 30 years ago, in fact they wouldn't have a got a look in or been able to book anyone. Things like ptw are a symptom of the decline in british wrestling, not a cause, the decline happened and shite like that turns up, as much hate as gets thrownn pete's way he didn't cause shit, and numerous other shitarses didn't cause shit, they just turned up after it all went to shite.

 

For the sake of argument, I think you've countered your own here. Yes, there are awful comedy nights, clubs, raves, gigs, etc., but your example of 30 years ago demonstrates WHY those other fields are less likely to suffer from bad elements in the industry than wrestling: there's an established, mainstream and well-paid framework to offset the bad.

 

Someone goes to a bad comedy night, they can simply hit the Hammersmith Apollo or the Comedy Store, and this will tell them not all comedians are shit. Same with all the other industries you mentioned. But when it comes to British wrestling as an industry, there's a significant enough lack of awareness of the better alternatives that people won't necessarily know there's anything better, and will therefore tune back in to WWE or TNA, thus hampering the growth of the British industry further.

 

The other element is critical mass - by itself, one bad promotion can't do much damage, this is true, but there are enough around the UK to be able to do quite a bit collectively.

 

Obviously, I'd never claim that this is the only reason the UK industry is where it is, as there are plenty of other things that need dealing with, I'm simply saying this is one of the elements.

 

Also, I might as well nail my trousers to the mast: I happen to know Peter, and from what I know of him, he's a friendly, amiable and well-meaning good-guy. But also (and I've told him this directly), he just can't help himself when it comes to the Internet, and it turns him into a bit of a div sometimes.

 

Pete, if you're back on here: you're a good bloke, but seriously, stop coming on here. I've told you enough times that you should be putting more focus on making your shows better, and that the only way you should be responding to these criticisms is by taking on board the valid points, filtering out the flaming, and demonstrating by your actions you're capable of improving. The more you respond in the manner you have, the more you respond AT ALL, the less professional it makes you look.

[spurs 4 life]

I'm not specifically talking about PTW, but surely while 1 shit company on it's own can put off 100/200 people, the shit across the country collectively can do much more damage?

 

Not if the quality's good enough to shine through at the top.

There's awful comedy nights, awful clubs, awful raves, awful gigs, there's loads of utter shite in any entertainment industry. But for some reason, despite dire football and 20 fans turning up and other shite in the very bottom leagues, the premier league does ok, comedy does ok, raves do ok, the problem isn't the shite at the bottom, it's the lack of anything amazing at the top.

And all the peter staniforths in the country wouldn't have made a lick of difference 30 years ago, in fact they wouldn't have a got a look in or been able to book anyone. Things like ptw are a symptom of the decline in british wrestling, not a cause, the decline happened and shite like that turns up, as much hate as gets thrownn pete's way he didn't cause shit, and numerous other shitarses didn't cause shit, they just turned up after it all went to shite.

 

For the sake of argument, I think you've countered your own here. Yes, there are awful comedy nights, clubs, raves, gigs, etc., but your example of 30 years ago demonstrates WHY those other fields are less likely to suffer from bad elements in the industry than wrestling: there's an established, mainstream and well-paid framework to offset the bad.

 

Someone goes to a bad comedy night, they can simply hit the Hammersmith Apollo or the Comedy Store, and this will tell them not all comedians are shit. Same with all the other industries you mentioned. But when it comes to British wrestling as an industry, there's a significant enough lack of awareness of the better alternatives that people won't necessarily know there's anything better, and will therefore tune back in to WWE or TNA, thus hampering the growth of the British industry further.

 

The other element is critical mass - by itself, one bad promotion can't do much damage, this is true, but there are enough around the UK to be able to do quite a bit collectively.

 

Obviously, I'd never claim that this is the only reason the UK industry is where it is, as there are plenty of other things that need dealing with, I'm simply saying this is one of the elements.

 

Also, I might as well nail my trousers to the mast: I happen to know Peter, and from what I know of him, he's a friendly, amiable and well-meaning good-guy. But also (and I've told him this directly), he just can't help himself when it comes to the Internet, and it turns him into a bit of a div sometimes.

 

Pete, if you're back on here: you're a good bloke, but seriously, stop coming on here. I've told you enough times that you should be putting more focus on making your shows better, and that the only way you should be responding to these criticisms is by taking on board the valid points, filtering out the flaming, and demonstrating by your actions you're capable of improving. The more you respond in the manner you have, the more you respond AT ALL, the less professional it makes you look.

 

Kiffy is spot on.

 

British wrestling whatever you see it as now can't compete not because of wankers like the one your discussing but because its trying to compete against a multi million pound international corporation with next to no money and no tv.

 

Deluded people appear in all walks of life and 99% of the population can tell the deluded from the talented.

[Carbomb]

I'm not specifically talking about PTW, but surely while 1 shit company on it's own can put off 100/200 people, the shit across the country collectively can do much more damage?

 

Not if the quality's good enough to shine through at the top.

There's awful comedy nights, awful clubs, awful raves, awful gigs, there's loads of utter shite in any entertainment industry. But for some reason, despite dire football and 20 fans turning up and other shite in the very bottom leagues, the premier league does ok, comedy does ok, raves do ok, the problem isn't the shite at the bottom, it's the lack of anything amazing at the top.

And all the peter staniforths in the country wouldn't have made a lick of difference 30 years ago, in fact they wouldn't have a got a look in or been able to book anyone. Things like ptw are a symptom of the decline in british wrestling, not a cause, the decline happened and shite like that turns up, as much hate as gets thrownn pete's way he didn't cause shit, and numerous other shitarses didn't cause shit, they just turned up after it all went to shite.

 

For the sake of argument, I think you've countered your own here. Yes, there are awful comedy nights, clubs, raves, gigs, etc., but your example of 30 years ago demonstrates WHY those other fields are less likely to suffer from bad elements in the industry than wrestling: there's an established, mainstream and well-paid framework to offset the bad.

 

Someone goes to a bad comedy night, they can simply hit the Hammersmith Apollo or the Comedy Store, and this will tell them not all comedians are shit. Same with all the other industries you mentioned. But when it comes to British wrestling as an industry, there's a significant enough lack of awareness of the better alternatives that people won't necessarily know there's anything better, and will therefore tune back in to WWE or TNA, thus hampering the growth of the British industry further.

 

The other element is critical mass - by itself, one bad promotion can't do much damage, this is true, but there are enough around the UK to be able to do quite a bit collectively.

 

Obviously, I'd never claim that this is the only reason the UK industry is where it is, as there are plenty of other things that need dealing with, I'm simply saying this is one of the elements.

 

Also, I might as well nail my trousers to the mast: I happen to know Peter, and from what I know of him, he's a friendly, amiable and well-meaning good-guy. But also (and I've told him this directly), he just can't help himself when it comes to the Internet, and it turns him into a bit of a div sometimes.

 

Pete, if you're back on here: you're a good bloke, but seriously, stop coming on here. I've told you enough times that you should be putting more focus on making your shows better, and that the only way you should be responding to these criticisms is by taking on board the valid points, filtering out the flaming, and demonstrating by your actions you're capable of improving. The more you respond in the manner you have, the more you respond AT ALL, the less professional it makes you look.

 

Kiffy is spot on.

 

British wrestling whatever you see it as now can't compete not because of wankers like the one your discussing but because its trying to compete against a multi million pound international corporation with next to no money and no tv.

 

Deluded people appear in all walks of life and 99% of the population can tell the deluded from the talented.

 

Like I said, there are a host of other problems facing British wrestling, and you've just gone and highlighted the biggest one (and it's also the biggest problem pretty much any Western wrestling promotion has, to be honest): WWE's brand recognition. I've said it many times before. Even TNA are having trouble carving out a niche in the public consciousness.

[King Pitcos]

Someone goes to a bad comedy night, they can simply hit the Hammersmith Apollo or the Comedy Store, and this will tell them not all comedians are shit. Same with all the other industries you mentioned. But when it comes to British wrestling as an industry, there's a significant enough lack of awareness of the better alternatives that people won't necessarily know there's anything better, and will therefore tune back in to WWE or TNA, thus hampering the growth of the British industry further.

But as Kiffy said, that's not down to the bad shows -- that's down to there not being any shows good enough to be well-known. Even at the high end of (non-import) BritWres shows, it's just a poster on a bus stop in town of some ordinary-looking men in their pants or tryhards in a novelty mask. It all looks much the same to an outsider. It's a lot closer to PWT than it is to WWE, which is why it's so easy for people to go to a shitarse show, see a similar poster in town (that's actually for a "good" BritWres promotion) and go "oh we've been to wrestling like that before, it was crap."

[spurs 4 life]

I'm not specifically talking about PTW, but surely while 1 shit company on it's own can put off 100/200 people, the shit across the country collectively can do much more damage?

 

Not if the quality's good enough to shine through at the top.

There's awful comedy nights, awful clubs, awful raves, awful gigs, there's loads of utter shite in any entertainment industry. But for some reason, despite dire football and 20 fans turning up and other shite in the very bottom leagues, the premier league does ok, comedy does ok, raves do ok, the problem isn't the shite at the bottom, it's the lack of anything amazing at the top.

And all the peter staniforths in the country wouldn't have made a lick of difference 30 years ago, in fact they wouldn't have a got a look in or been able to book anyone. Things like ptw are a symptom of the decline in british wrestling, not a cause, the decline happened and shite like that turns up, as much hate as gets thrownn pete's way he didn't cause shit, and numerous other shitarses didn't cause shit, they just turned up after it all went to shite.

 

For the sake of argument, I think you've countered your own here. Yes, there are awful comedy nights, clubs, raves, gigs, etc., but your example of 30 years ago demonstrates WHY those other fields are less likely to suffer from bad elements in the industry than wrestling: there's an established, mainstream and well-paid framework to offset the bad.

 

Someone goes to a bad comedy night, they can simply hit the Hammersmith Apollo or the Comedy Store, and this will tell them not all comedians are shit. Same with all the other industries you mentioned. But when it comes to British wrestling as an industry, there's a significant enough lack of awareness of the better alternatives that people won't necessarily know there's anything better, and will therefore tune back in to WWE or TNA, thus hampering the growth of the British industry further.

 

The other element is critical mass - by itself, one bad promotion can't do much damage, this is true, but there are enough around the UK to be able to do quite a bit collectively.

 

Obviously, I'd never claim that this is the only reason the UK industry is where it is, as there are plenty of other things that need dealing with, I'm simply saying this is one of the elements.

 

Also, I might as well nail my trousers to the mast: I happen to know Peter, and from what I know of him, he's a friendly, amiable and well-meaning good-guy. But also (and I've told him this directly), he just can't help himself when it comes to the Internet, and it turns him into a bit of a div sometimes.

 

Pete, if you're back on here: you're a good bloke, but seriously, stop coming on here. I've told you enough times that you should be putting more focus on making your shows better, and that the only way you should be responding to these criticisms is by taking on board the valid points, filtering out the flaming, and demonstrating by your actions you're capable of improving. The more you respond in the manner you have, the more you respond AT ALL, the less professional it makes you look.

 

Kiffy is spot on.

 

British wrestling whatever you see it as now can't compete not because of wankers like the one your discussing but because its trying to compete against a multi million pound international corporation with next to no money and no tv.

 

Deluded people appear in all walks of life and 99% of the population can tell the deluded from the talented.

 

Like I said, there are a host of other problems facing British wrestling, and you've just gone and highlighted the biggest one (and it's also the biggest problem pretty much any Western wrestling promotion has, to be honest): WWE's brand recognition. I've said it many times before. Even TNA are having trouble carving out a niche in the public consciousness.

 

Exactly. The other problems are pretty much irrelevant until the money is injected and the tv deal is secured.

[Carbomb]

Someone goes to a bad comedy night, they can simply hit the Hammersmith Apollo or the Comedy Store, and this will tell them not all comedians are shit. Same with all the other industries you mentioned. But when it comes to British wrestling as an industry, there's a significant enough lack of awareness of the better alternatives that people won't necessarily know there's anything better, and will therefore tune back in to WWE or TNA, thus hampering the growth of the British industry further.

But as Kiffy said, that's not down to the bad shows -- that's down to there not being any shows good enough to be well-known. Even at the high end of (non-import) BritWres shows, it's just a poster on a bus stop in town of some ordinary-looking men in their pants or tryhards in a novelty mask. It's a lot closer to PWT than it is to WWE, which is why it's so easy for people to go to a shitarse show, see a similar poster in town (that's actually for a "good" BritWres promotion) and go "oh we've been to wrestling like that before, it was crap."

As I said later, it's a conglomeration of factors, not just the one, but I think you're outright wrong concerning the better promotions, at least in terms of looks and posters. When I was involved, the pasty, skinny Johnny Kickpads type was one of the more major problems with British wrestling, but nowadays most of the guys on the posters look great. And a lot of the good promotions, like IPW:UK and so on, get a lot of repeat business, and have built up a pretty solid core fanbase. There are enough decent shows to draw people, but like I say, there is a whole host of other factors influencing the British scene, both from inside and outside the industry.

[King Pitcos]

As I said later, it's a conglomeration of factors, not just the one, but I think you're outright wrong concerning the better promotions, at least in terms of looks and posters. When I was involved, the pasty, skinny Johnny Kickpads type was one of the more major problems with British wrestling, but nowadays most of the guys on the posters look great. And a lot of the good promotions, like IPW:UK and so on, get a lot of repeat business, and have built up a pretty solid core fanbase.

Having just googled them, I came across this banner for an upcoming event:

 

 

I realise that's not a poster, but are their posters similar in terms of style and the photographs they use?

[Mark Sloan]

As I said later, it's a conglomeration of factors, not just the one, but I think you're outright wrong concerning the better promotions, at least in terms of looks and posters. When I was involved, the pasty, skinny Johnny Kickpads type was one of the more major problems with British wrestling, but nowadays most of the guys on the posters look great. And a lot of the good promotions, like IPW:UK and so on, get a lot of repeat business, and have built up a pretty solid core fanbase.

Having just googled them, I came across this banner for an upcoming event:

 

 

I realise that's not a poster, but are their posters similar in terms of style and the photographs they use?

 

 

This is a typical non-specific poster, with event details at the bottom.

 

Fighter for the kids, one who typically looks like what people perceieve to be what a wrestler looks like, and a strong character who is instantly indentifiable. Clear Title of Wrestling.

[Loki]

Question Mark - why do people put "American Style Wrestling" at the top. Honestly, is there any other kind as far as the public's concerned? Most of the audience who used to go to "British" wrestling are dead, frankly.

[Mark Sloan]

Question Mark - why do people put "American Style Wrestling" at the top. Honestly, is there any other kind as far as the public's concerned? Most of the audience who used to go to "British" wrestling are dead, frankly.

 

Hmmm, it's something we personally have never really done. I think the idea behind it is that "American Wrestling" is to try and seperate it from wrestling of Yesteryear. Which if you ask most people their reaction to British Wrestling is "Big Daddy etc etc" where as if you say "American Wrestling" is WWE (or that American Sh!t) as people will say. So they would like to attract fans of American Wrestling as opposed to people who remember British Wrestling.

 

I personally think the logic is flawed, but that is what people tend to do in my experience.

 

Remembering back on the first few posters I did, I remember taking one to a huge talent agency near me and showed it to them, I was pretty chuffed. He ripped it to shreads and I almost welled up in the office! He didn't half kill me for it, but the lesson learnt was a tremendous one.

 

The advice was excellent, I am just glad I was able to understand what he was saying, not that he ripped me to death.

[Carbomb]

As I said later, it's a conglomeration of factors, not just the one, but I think you're outright wrong concerning the better promotions, at least in terms of looks and posters. When I was involved, the pasty, skinny Johnny Kickpads type was one of the more major problems with British wrestling, but nowadays most of the guys on the posters look great. And a lot of the good promotions, like IPW:UK and so on, get a lot of repeat business, and have built up a pretty solid core fanbase.

Having just googled them, I came across this banner for an upcoming event:

 

 

I realise that's not a poster, but are their posters similar in terms of style and the photographs they use?

 

I get what you're going for, but I don't agree.

 

Mastiff and Samuels look like hard, nasty bastards, Spud looks glam and appeals to the female demographic, and Lion Kid appeals to the kiddies. That banner's not the best example, because the posters show more of their physiques anyhow.

 

On top of that, when you've got the likes of Leroy Kincaid, Johnny Moss, Martin Stone, Joel Redman, Pac, Mark Haskins and John Ryan on a poster like IPW:UK have had for so many of their events, I think it puts my point into clearer perspective.

[King Pitcos]

 

This is a typical non-specific poster, with event details at the bottom.

 

Fighter for the kids, one who typically looks like what people perceieve to be what a wrestler looks like, and a strong character who is instantly indentifiable. Clear Title of Wrestling.

That one's a bit better than the banner I found, but still... It looks very identikit. The guy in the middle looks good, the Rey Mysterio one on the left looks fine as well for what it is, and the guy on the right looks a bit rubbish but unique. But regardless of that, it's the clear title of wrestling being more prominent than IPW:UK. No real brand recognition, and I understand that there can't be because no brand other than just "wrestling" will mean anything to someone who comes across it. My point is it'd be easily confused with any other generic wrestling poster that had been in town the month before, or would be in town the following month. So this same promotion could be easily confused/associated with another, shitter promotion by a passer-by.

[Dirty Eddie]

 

This is a typical non-specific poster, with event details at the bottom.

 

Fighter for the kids, one who typically looks like what people perceieve to be what a wrestler looks like, and a strong character who is instantly indentifiable. Clear Title of Wrestling.

That one's a bit better than the banner I found, but still... It looks very identikit. The guy in the middle looks good, the Rey Mysterio one on the left looks fine as well for what it is, and the guy on the right looks a bit rubbish but unique. But regardless of that, it's the clear title of wrestling being more prominent than IPW:UK. No real brand recognition, and I understand that there can't be because no brand other than just "wrestling" will mean anything to someone who comes across it. My point is it'd be easily confused with any other generic wrestling poster that had been in town the month before, or would be in town the following month. So this same promotion could be easily confused/associated with another, shitter promotion by a passer-by.

 

 

Isn't that exactly the point you were arguing against though?

 

People are saying that (the likes of) PTW are a problem because they might give casual fans the impression that they are a good representation of UK wrestling (thus making all UK wrestling look shit). You can see how that might happen, when all Joe Public has to go on is a poster at a bus stop. They see an advert for "wrestling", they go to the show and it's total shit. Next time they see another (perhaps just vaguely similar) poster for UK wrestling they will instantly dismiss it because last time they had a shit night out.

 

Now, obviously that isn't the "whole problem" with UK wrestling not being bigger than it is, but it is a contributing factor.

 

It sucks that the good UK companies don't have bigger brand recognition or large ad budgets that mean they could put TV ads during RAW or use Radio adverts to get their name out there. Obviously that would help distance them from the shit at the bottom (and make the shit at the bottom much less of an issue). That isn't the case though, and while things are that way, the shitarse companies are still a drag-factor to everyone else actually putting on a strong product.

[King Pitcos]

Isn't that exactly the point you were arguing against though?

 

People are saying that (the likes of) PTW are a problem because they might give casual fans the impression that they are a good representation of UK wrestling (thus making all UK wrestling look shit). You can see how that might happen, when all Joe Public has to go on is a poster at a bus stop. They see an advert for "wrestling", they go to the show and it's total shit. Next time they see another (perhaps just vaguely similar) poster for UK wrestling they will instantly dismiss it because last time they had a shit night out.

No, that's the point I'm making. The "good" BritWres companies don't have enough about them to strongly distinguish themselves from the bad ones. Nobody's going to see a PWT (or IPW:UK) poster at a bus stop and confuse it with WWE. Having a shit time at PTW isn't going to put them off buying tickets for the next WWE or TNA show, but it could put them off stuff that looks to be on the same level. Now there's no way to force PTW-alikes to stop promoting, so the onus is on the groups who see themselves as better than that to raise themselves to a level where punters could never confuse the two.